well then Read ain't the man at test level.

Jones did nothing wrong in this test, bar mis-read a googly. Other than that I thought his performance was very good.

quote:

Originally posted by holcs:
well then Read ain't the man at test level.

Jones did nothing wrong in this test, bar mis-read a googly. Other than that I thought his performance was very good.

His gloving performances have been at a decent standard for a year now. His batting wasn't great in this Test but he was no doubt asked to hurry the pace up in the 1st and unlucky in the 2nd knock with a tenuous decision.

But really Chris Read got 1 in 37 balls and looked poor. Where're the Read fans who shout about his weekly performance? Surely you should be saying something.

Did notice that Read had a bit of a 'mare in his last CC match. In fact I'd be interested what he averages in the CC this season- I bet if you take away the runs he made in the tour match and the glorified pre-season beer match against the MCC, his FC average is pretty ordinary this season. Would be surprised if Go Jo was dropped- not that it wouldn't be justified.

If England are playing five bowlers- they've got to be five genuine bowling options. Plunkett is only likely to pick up the occasional wicket and ease pressure on the Pakistani batsmen at the moment. Not that there are really many other genuine options out there.

quote:

Originally posted by holcs:
well then Read ain't the man at test level.

Jones did nothing wrong in this test, bar mis-read a googly. Other than that I thought his performance was very good.

So now we have a good keeper who can't bat!

Ironic, don't you think?

Very much so, but he showed he could bat......

When his keeping was under pressure he couldn't catch. Now he's not scoring as many and his batting is the problem, can't buy a run, and yet he got 18 and 16, so he's getting the starts.

quote:

Originally posted by Ngam:

quote:

Originally posted by holcs:
well then Read ain't the man at test level.

Jones did nothing wrong in this test, bar mis-read a googly. Other than that I thought his performance was very good.

His gloving performances have been at a decent standard for a year now. His batting wasn't great in this Test but he was no doubt asked to hurry the pace up in the 1st and unlucky in the 2nd knock with a tenuous decision.

But really Chris Read got 1 in 37 balls and looked poor. Where're the Read fans who shout about his weekly performance? Surely you should be saying something.

Hardly worth criticising Read for one bad game with the bat, in his previous match he scored 150. Especially considering G Jones has now had mediocre returns with his batting for his last 8 consecutive games for England.

Added to this Jones despite his recent improvements as a keeper is still much inferior in this discipline to Read.

quote:

Originally posted by holcs:
Very much so, but he showed he could bat......

When his keeping was under pressure he couldn't catch. Now he's not scoring as many and his batting is the problem, can't buy a run, and yet he got 18 and 16, so he's getting the starts.

Incidentally, Read's only passed that score 4 times.

Is Jones undroppable?

If he fails to score all summer will he still be selected?

quote:

Originally posted by Gary_86:
Hardly worth criticising Read for one bad game with the bat, in his previous match he scored 150. Especially considering G Jones has now had mediocre returns with his batting for his last 8 consecutive games for England.

Added to this Jones despite his recent improvements as a keeper is still much inferior in this discipline to Read.

Why? You'd criticise Jones, in fact you did. Jones has done nothing wrong with the gloves for a large period. Let's not get carried away about Read, he's averaging 30 in CC this year. When he got 150, the number 11 scored a debut 50*. It's not like he's beaten worlds.

Ive made the point about what I consider the ideal team balance for Eng so many times that its become boring now:

For OT:

Tresco
Strauss
Cook
KP
Colly
Shah
Fred
Read
Hoggy
Harmi
Monty

However given that DF is in charge of everything in English cricket the above team has as much likelihood as a snowflake did in the recent Lords test.

The best Eng could hope for would be a straight swap between Fred and Plunkett. Even that is hugely unlikley though.

quote:

Originally posted by Ngam:

quote:

Originally posted by Gary_86:
Hardly worth criticising Read for one bad game with the bat, in his previous match he scored 150. Especially considering G Jones has now had mediocre returns with his batting for his last 8 consecutive games for England.

Added to this Jones despite his recent improvements as a keeper is still much inferior in this discipline to Read.

Why? You'd criticise Jones, in fact you did. Jones has done nothing wrong with the gloves for a large period. Let's not get carried away about Read, he's averaging 30 in CC this year. When he got 150, the number 11 scored a debut 50*. It's not like he's beaten worlds.

When he got 150 he was facing a stronger bowling attack than Jones has in this Test!

Jones is clearly a worse keeper than Read, I can't believe people continue to argue otherwise. The only way he can keep Read out of the team is by scoring runs, which he hasn't done for a long time.

Just for a recap, Jones muffed at least 9 chances during the Ashes. NINE! over the course of 5 tests. He tightened up by his standards since then, but still missed 3 or 4 over the winter including a vital one off Kumble at Nagpur. Then at Lords Jones missed Sangakkarra and Jayawardena (I know other people dropped catches - but that's no excuse).

During the Ashes England's bowling was so potent that his misses weren't too costly. We were creating lots of chances. Now the bowling is depleted opposition batsmen are making us pay. I don't imagine England will be creating too many chances over the next 3 Tests vs Pakistan and down under this winter so we need to catch every one of them, that's why I think we need our best keeper there.

Danny are you going to answer the post above or shall I?

Hmmm, Warne faces weaker batting every week in FC cricket - surely he should've taken 10 10fers by now, considering his success in England????

Clearly the worse keeper? You see him regularly enough to see this? Why's he done bad things when I've seen him? Thought he was old Iron Gloves.

Jones did some bad things a year ago? Why repeat this if he's improved a marked amount? It's of no issue. That's like me saying Macko was bad because he took only 4 wickets @ 80 in his first 4 Tests.

quote:

Originally posted by holcs:
Danny are you going to answer the post above or shall I?

We could both have a go Chas.

I'll try and answer this a bit at a time...

quote:

Originally posted by Ngam:
Hmmm, Warne faces weaker batting every week in FC cricket - surely he should've taken 10 10fers by now, considering his success in England????

Obviously Pakistan were trying harder in the First Test than in the tour match, but when you've got a keeper who can't buy a run and someone who's just hit an unbeaten 150 then maybe you can't afford to ignore whats right in front of your face...

quote:

Clearly the worse keeper? You see him regularly enough to see this? Why's he done bad things when I've seen him? Thought he was old Iron Gloves.

Read kept near flawlessly for England upon his recall, whereas Jones is close to an international laughing stock for the number of chances he's missed. I can't recall a worse keeper for England than Jones, while Read is up there with the best in my opinion.

Read is a better keeper than Jones. This isn't an outrageous view, lots of people out there agreed with it by the looks of things...

quote:

Jones did some bad things a year ago? Why repeat this if he's improved a marked amount? It's of no issue. That's like me saying Macko was bad because he took only 4 wickets @ 80 in his first 4 Tests.

He's still been missing close on to a chance a game since the Pakistan tour in Tests. I was pointing out that if he'd caught any of the Kumble, Sangakkarra or Jayawardena chances England were likely to win the match and with it the series. So its more like saying he's been keeping awfully for his first 20 Tests and is now merely average.

To use your bowling analogy, Not Marshall, more like 20 tests of Salisbury and 10 more of Alan Mullally, better but still not great.

Sorry Danny, working!

The ashes, he dropped 9 in the ashes, big hoopsie do, that was 12 months ago..... let it go! If thats your whole arguement, and then add 3 more in the winter, everyone drops catches. Point is, in his very last performance with the gloves he was near enough exemplary! Better than the Pakistani keeper who was appalling....

I've seen Read look particularly poor on TV this year when keeping.

As for the batting, both positions he was put in in this test were hardly the best for a man needing runs. In both innings England were in a position to require quick runs, which Jones attempted to do, despite the obvious b0ll0cks that would ensue from his doubters mouths that he only got 16 and 18.... look at the context of the game.

As for Read, he faced near enough the same bowling attack on an even flatter road in the A side... when as Danny said almost everyone got runs, even 11 got 50*.

The guy averages 30 in FCC hardly flying is he, plus in his previous outings for England (and don't give me the he scored a 30* to win the game in Guyana, its an ODI) he has looked poor with the bat, both physically and mentally, and whilst he can work on technique, I doubt very much that he has what it takes mentally at that level!

quote:

As for the batting, both positions he was put in in this test were hardly the best for a man needing runs. In both innings England were in a position to require quick runs, which Jones attempted to do, despite the obvious b0ll0cks that would ensue from his doubters mouths that he only got 16 and 18.... look at the context of the game.

16 off 54 balls when we should have been going for a declaration, looked more to me like he was trying to save his place in the side.

I thought the first ball back over the head, really looked like that was the case.......

Stats are not the be all and end all. Look at the way in which he played not the bare facts of balls and runs.......

Bloody hell, Charlesie - you can't say 'judge Jones on his current keeping' while you judge Read on his old Test batting. Judge them both by the same standards.

quote:

Originally posted by Gary_86:

quote:

As for the batting, both positions he was put in in this test were hardly the best for a man needing runs. In both innings England were in a position to require quick runs, which Jones attempted to do, despite the obvious b0ll0cks that would ensue from his doubters mouths that he only got 16 and 18.... look at the context of the game.

16 off 54 balls when we should have been going for a declaration, looked more to me like he was trying to save his place in the side.

Looked to me like he was trying to get his eye so he could swing the willow later, unfortunately his dodgy technique was found out before hand

So GoJo meant well but didn't deliver...

I think the problem is that Jones and Read are considered the best keeper batsmen English cricket has to offer. All in all, I don't think there's much between them. Shame someone like Foster isn't piling the runs on to put pressure on the selectors. They could just go loopy and pick a consistent county performer like Jon Batty who's a far more accomplished county bat than any of the above. I remember Ridley Jacobs started his international career late and did a good job for the Windies.

quote:

Originally posted by Gary_86:
Obviously Pakistan were trying harder in the First Test than in the tour match, but when you've got a keeper who can't buy a run and someone who's just hit an unbeaten 150 then maybe you can't afford to ignore whats right in front of your face...

Read kept near flawlessly for England upon his recall, whereas Jones is close to an international laughing stock for the number of chances he's missed. I can't recall a worse keeper for England than Jones, while Read is up there with the best in my opinion.

Read is a better keeper than Jones. This isn't an outrageous view, lots of people out there agreed with it by the looks of things...

He's still been missing close on to a chance a game since the Pakistan tour in Tests. I was pointing out that if he'd caught any of the Kumble, Sangakkarra or Jayawardena chances England were likely to win the match and with it the series. So its more like saying he's been keeping awfully for his first 20 Tests and is now merely average.

No not at all. I dislike how people just drop in "Chris Read's the best keeper.....Geraint Jones kept awfully in his career". I dislike it because it's lies. Jones has had good games in that time, he's had bad games in that time. It's just that even if he had a glut of good games, people would still admonish him for his bad games 2 years ago.

With Jones the memory has always been short. His average catches per match are FAR from embarassing, especially considering there've been many difficult ones. On a par with 'the worlds best' in fact. But nobody wants to see this, that's fine but I dislike this big uniform party line. A lot of people agree because they either haven't seen enough of Read or haven't seen enough of Jones. These are also the usually same people who said "Who cares about runs, you want your best catcher" - it's pretty annyoing.

It's also annoying that it's seen as an abject failure to get 18 and 16 runs - yet to Chris Read it would be his equal 4th highest score and his 5th highest score.

One's being made out to be God and the other the Devil when neither is as clear cut as that. It's pathetic.

quote:

Originally posted by tailender:
Bloody hell, Charlesie - you can't say 'judge Jones on his current keeping' while you judge Read on his old Test batting. Judge them both by the same standards.

Taily, i'm more than happy to judge Jones and Read currently... however if people will keep harping back to a year ago then so will I.

Read got 150 in a non televised game against a underdone Pakistani side on a very very very very very flat pitch, when every man and his dog got runs.

He also on TV this year hasn't looked great shakes with the bat, or with the gloves to be fair.

Jones seems to have more about him mentally is all!

quote:

Originally posted by Toga:
I think the problem is that Jones and Read are considered the best keeper batsmen English cricket has to offer.

Tom, there isn't that much between:

Davies
Wallace
Frost(he's averaging 65 in FC this year FFS)
Cross (looks good)
Batty - consumate professional
Foster
Wessel