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Come to think of it, that formula may favour modern teams because there's more test cricket played these days, and weaker opposition. Could factor in averages too somehow, and ignore test matches featuring BAN or ZIM!
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Seen as this is going to be subjective whichever way we look at it - how about forgetting about the stats and putting what we think was the best possible XI - bearing in mind form and fitness at the time.
Rather than stats which tend to favour players past their best, e.g. Jayasuriya has 6,791 runs at 40.42 at the moment - but he was actually a much better player 10 years ago though he only had 1,266 runs at 37.23 on the 22 June 1997. He was approaching his peak rather than well past it.
So to start the ball rolling I propose the England XI that took the field at the SCG in 1933:
Jardine*
Sutcliffe
Hammond
Leyland
Wyatt
Paynter
Ames+
Allen
Verity
Larwood
Voce
This ticks nearly all the right boxes, strong captain, 2 outstanding batsmen, another two damn fine ones with a fine wicket-keeper/batsman as well. Beautifully balanced bowling attack - out and out pace, a left-armer, a swing bowler, back-up medium pace from Hammond and England's finest ever spinner. They bat well down the batting order too. Only weaknesses perhaps the limited (as a batsman) Jardine as opener and Wyatt a bit weak in the middle order too.
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Or you could go with the celebrated Oval 1953 England team:
Hutton*
Edrich
May
Compton
Graveney
Bailey
Evans+
Laker
Lock
Trueman
Bedser
Here you've got some fine batting talent, pace, swing and two types of spin. Although I would go with the previous team I posted because the batting looks weaker to me here (Bailey & Evans both a place too high in the order when you consider their career batting averages). Also the pace attack - Trueman, still a novice and Bedser and Bailey a little short of pace if there's little help from the pitch. The team would also be improved by selecting the more versatile 12th man Johnny Wardle ahead of Tony Lock.
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I think the West Indies picks itself pretty much - it's always going to be one of Clive Lloyd's early 80's teams. How about this one which beat India comfortably at Bridgetown in 1983:
Greenidge
Haynes
Richards
Gomes
Logie
Lloyd*
Dujon+
Marshall
Roberts
Holding
Garner
7 good batsmen and that fearsome 4-pronged pace attack.
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Australia would be a tricky one - would you go for Warwick Armstrong's team, or Bradman's Invincibles, or one of the later varieties under Benaud, Chappelli, Steve Waugh or maybe even Ponting's side.
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Nice thread.
Not the best ever but I like the Pakistan side that played the Windies in 1991. The fact that they drew a series with a Windies (winning one Test) side that contained Walsh, Ambrose, Marshall, Bishop, Hooper, Greenidge, Dujon, Haynes and Richardson is testament to how good they were.
Saeed Anwar
Shoaib Mohammad
Zahid Fazal
Javed Miandad
Salim Malik
Imran Khan (c)
Wasim Akram
Moin Khan (k)
Abdul Qadir
Mustaq Ahmed
Waqar Younis
Bit weak on the batting but almost fits Gary's criteria.
Excellent, inspirational captain.
One great batsman (Miandad).
Four very good batsman (Anwar, Mohammad, Malik, Imran).
Great allrounder (two if you include Wasim). Maybe the greatest left armer ever (Wasim). Brilliant spin from Mushy and Qadir.
Decent keeper.
There aren't many bowling attacks better.
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How about the 1912 side that demolished OZ by an innings & 225 at the MCG in 1912:
J.B.Hobbs
W.Rhodes
G.Gunn
J.W.Hearne
F.R.Foster
J.W.H.T.Douglas (capt.).
F.E.Woolley
C.P.Mead
J.Vine
E.J.Smith (wktkpr.).
S.F.Barnes
Hobbs & Rhodes put on 323 in their opening partnership (still a record for England in Eng v.Aus. Tests) with Gunn, Foster & Woolley all scoring 50s. Barnes took a Michelle in Oz' first innings and Douglas in their second. The side includes 3 out of the 4 of most prolific run-scorers in all fc cricket (Hobbs, Woolley & Mead - only one missing is Hendren) although then at the outset of their careers.
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If South Afirca hadn't been banned they would have had
Barry Richards
Graeme Pollock
Eddie Barlow
Brian Irvine
Denis Lindsay (k)
Michael Procter
Vince van der Bijl
Peter Pollock
all in the same team. Would have beaten just about anyone.
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As it is, they had a team like this in 1969-70, which beat a reasonably good Aussie side 4-0: (Durban) Richards Goddard Bacher* G Pollock Barlow Irvine Lance Procter Gamsy P Pollock Traicos Not perfect, maybe, but pretty strong!
----------------------------
'That man knows everything. It's a pity he doesn't know anything else.' - Philip Roth
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Yeah I suppose a subjective analysis may be the best we can get. I just like stats  Gomes & Logie are the weak link in the WI team posted, wasn't there a time that Kallicharran was in a similar line-up ? Can't beat that pace line-up though, with Richards as the spin option. |
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quote: Originally posted by River End Green:
As it is, they had a team like this in 1969-70, which beat a reasonably good Aussie side 4-0:
(Durban)
Richards
Goddard
Bacher*
G Pollock
Barlow
Irvine
Lance
Procter
Gamsy
P Pollock
Traicos
Not perfect, maybe, but pretty strong!
Yep, was just about to put the same team up (give or take a Dennis). I was going to have the test after at Johannesburg where you've got the extra batting of Denis Lindsay for Dennis Gamsy as wicket-keeper. Either way pretty strong. The next summer they were due to play in England - against Ray Illingworth's very combative England side. This would have been a useful indicator of how good they were. Judging by Barry Richards and Graeme Pollocks averages in the re-arranged England v Rest Of The World XI Tests that happened instead I think South Africa wouldn't have had it all their own way. |
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quote: Originally posted by jezbo: Yeah I suppose a subjective analysis may be the best we can get. I just like stats Gomes & Logie are the weak link in the WI team posted, wasn't there a time that Kallicharran was in a similar line-up ? Can't beat that pace line-up though, with Richards as the spin option.
Kallicharran was at his best in the mid 70s, after 1979/80 his career kind of tailed off with poor returns in his last 3 series - so if you were including him it would probably have to be the West Indies team that toured Australia (winning 2-0 in a 3 Test Series) in 1979/80. So here you have Kallicharran and Lawrence Rowe (another fine player but also at the end of his career) for Gomes & Logie. But maybe what you gain in batting you also lose a bit as Deryck Murray is the keeper then not Jeff Dujon. Finally it also means Colin Croft not Malcolm Marshall - so I went for the 82/83 vintage, although both sides are very, very strong. |
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quote: Originally posted by River End Green:
As it is, they had a team like this in 1969-70, which beat a reasonably good Aussie side 4-0:
(Durban)
Richards
Goddard
Bacher*
G Pollock
Barlow
Irvine
Lance
Procter
Gamsy
P Pollock
Traicos
Not perfect, maybe, but pretty strong!
If you look at the team picked to go to Aussie the following year. |
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I reckon Waugh's side in 2001 was the best Aussie side.
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New Member
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Maybe for Australia the line up that beat England at the Oval in 2001..
Hayden
Langer
Ponting
M Waugh
S Waugh
Martyn
Gilchrist
Warne
Lee
Gillespie
McGrath
I don't think Lee belongs there, it would be stronger if maybe MacGill or Fleming were playing. One of the all time best captains though....
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quote: Originally posted by Gary_86: [QUOTE]Originally posted by jezbo: Yeah I suppose a subjective analysis may be the best we can get. I just like stats Gomes & Logie are the weak link in the WI team posted.
Disagree - both were "clutch" players who delivered runs when the WI neede them most. Logie got them out of trouble many times. |
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quote: Originally posted by Nevilrd:
Maybe for Australia the line up that beat England at the Oval in 2001..
Hayden
Langer
Ponting
M Waugh
S Waugh
Martyn
Gilchrist
Warne
Lee
Gillespie
McGrath
I don't think Lee belongs there, it would be stronger if maybe MacGill or Fleming were playing. One of the all time best captains though....
SA in 1970 would be stronger. |
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New Member
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quote: Originally posted by Jonatho_D.: quote: Originally posted by Nevilrd:
Maybe for Australia the line up that beat England at the Oval in 2001..
Hayden
Langer
Ponting
M Waugh
S Waugh
Martyn
Gilchrist
Warne
Lee
Gillespie
McGrath
I don't think Lee belongs there, it would be stronger if maybe MacGill or Fleming were playing. One of the all time best captains though....
SA in 1970 would be stronger.
O....k, I'd have to disagree with that one... Over 55,000 test runs, 1600+ Test wickets and over 600 catchs... They don't come much better than that. |
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quote: Originally posted by Nevilrd: quote: Originally posted by Jonatho_D.: quote: Originally posted by Nevilrd:
Maybe for Australia the line up that beat England at the Oval in 2001..
Hayden
Langer
Ponting
M Waugh
S Waugh
Martyn
Gilchrist
Warne
Lee
Gillespie
McGrath
I don't think Lee belongs there, it would be stronger if maybe MacGill or Fleming were playing. One of the all time best captains though....
SA in 1970 would be stronger.
O....k, I'd have to disagree with that one... Over 55,000 test runs, 1600+ Test wickets and over 600 catchs... They don't come much better than that.
On what point? That team stuffed Aussie 4-0 andwas improving with the likes of Rice and Vander Bijl coming in. |
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New Member
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quote: Originally posted by Jonatho_D.: quote: Originally posted by Nevilrd: quote: Originally posted by Jonatho_D.: quote: Originally posted by Nevilrd:
Maybe for Australia the line up that beat England at the Oval in 2001..
Hayden
Langer
Ponting
M Waugh
S Waugh
Martyn
Gilchrist
Warne
Lee
Gillespie
McGrath
I don't think Lee belongs there, it would be stronger if maybe MacGill or Fleming were playing. One of the all time best captains though....
SA in 1970 would be stronger.
O....k, I'd have to disagree with that one... Over 55,000 test runs, 1600+ Test wickets and over 600 catchs... They don't come much better than that.
On what point? That team stuffed Aussie 4-0 andwas improving with the likes of Rice and Vander Bijl coming in.
They stuffed a different Aussie team 4-0 and I doubt they could beat the 2001 team.... |
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quote: Originally posted by Nevilrd: quote: Originally posted by Jonatho_D.: quote: Originally posted by Nevilrd: quote: Originally posted by Jonatho_D.: quote: Originally posted by Nevilrd:
Maybe for Australia the line up that beat England at the Oval in 2001..
Hayden
Langer
Ponting
M Waugh
S Waugh
Martyn
Gilchrist
Warne
Lee
Gillespie
McGrath
I don't think Lee belongs there, it would be stronger if maybe MacGill or Fleming were playing. One of the all time best captains though....
SA in 1970 would be stronger.
O....k, I'd have to disagree with that one... Over 55,000 test runs, 1600+ Test wickets and over 600 catchs... They don't come much better than that.
On what point? That team stuffed Aussie 4-0 andwas improving with the likes of Rice and Vander Bijl coming in.
Which shows you dont know much about cricket. Ever heard of Graeme Pollock or Barry Richards? They stuffed a different Aussie team 4-0 and I doubt they could beat the 2001 team....
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quote: Originally posted by Jonatho_D.: quote: Originally posted by Nevilrd: quote: Originally posted by Jonatho_D.: quote: Originally posted by Nevilrd: quote: Originally posted by Jonatho_D.: quote: Originally posted by Nevilrd:
Maybe for Australia the line up that beat England at the Oval in 2001..
Hayden
Langer
Ponting
M Waugh
S Waugh
Martyn
Gilchrist
Warne
Lee
Gillespie
McGrath
I don't think Lee belongs there, it would be stronger if maybe MacGill or Fleming were playing. One of the all time best captains though....
SA in 1970 would be stronger.
O....k, I'd have to disagree with that one... Over 55,000 test runs, 1600+ Test wickets and over 600 catchs... They don't come much better than that.
On what point? That team stuffed Aussie 4-0 andwas improving with the likes of Rice and Vander Bijl coming in.
Which shows you dont know much about cricket. Ever heard of Graeme Pollock or Barry Richards? They stuffed a different Aussie team 4-0 and I doubt they could beat the 2001 team....
For the ODI baby boomers. The Aussie team in 1970 included Lawry, Ian Chappell, Walters, Redpath and Mckenzie |
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quote: Originally posted by Mister Robby:
Disagree - both were "clutch" players who delivered runs wh
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