quote:

Originally posted by holcs:
Danny,

If a side is going to employ a Kolpak, I want that player to be of international class, such as Klusener or Flower.

Henderson and the ilk just dont cut it at that level, and as such those younger players would be better served playing IMO.

quote:

Originally posted by MoC:
Danny- Dunno if you remember Tize who used to post on here- she had a list of all of them- they are also in Crickets Whos Who. Just looking at their web page- they have kicked out bassano, Bryant, Moss, Friend at one fell swoop and have signed Andy Gray.

Would you honestly say any of the above seriously improve the calibre of cricket?

quote:

Originally posted by Comical Smoking Monkey:

quote:

Originally posted by holcs:
Danny,

If a side is going to employ a Kolpak, I want that player to be of international class, such as Klusener or Flower.

Henderson and the ilk just dont cut it at that level, and as such those younger players would be better served playing IMO.

They don't cut it at international level, but do at County level? Hmmm, that sounds familiar.

Yep, Claude's such a mercenary that he's been at Leics and will be at Leics until the end of his career? Terrible bloke. Getting back to Claude, who's the better spinner(s) at Leics? Last time I checked, there's Jeremy Snape - a bloke who didn't cut it at international level, but excelled in County Cricket - and he gets in the team anyway. I find it sad that you have had to have heard of someone for them to be good. Hadn't heard of Louw myself, turned out to be a cracker...

quote:

Originally posted by please:
moc why would the counties pay large sums of money for players who are barely first class standard?

doesn't seem logical.

Maybe the real issue is that county cricket has too many teams and thus the standard itself is too low, for example do you actually know of any talented young players who can't get a county gig?

if they cut the teams and improve the quality of cricket then only the best players from overseas will make it in anyway.

quote:

Originally posted by holcs:
Danny this isn't about county rivalries, its about getting the most number of english players playing FC cricket to improve the pool of English players.

A Kolpaker like Henderson, however good he was a county level IS/WAS never any good at International level.

Players like Sutcliffe and Chiltern you are correct are never gonna be good enough for England, but they ARE english. How can you say Louw or Kruis will have the county at heart, when they hardly stay for more than 1 season at a time?????

Whereas IMO there is a greater possibility of Chiltern being more likely to encourage help those english youngsters at Lancs????

quote:

Originally posted by Comical Smoking Monkey:

quote:

Originally posted by holcs:
Danny this isn't about county rivalries, its about getting the most number of english players playing FC cricket to improve the pool of English players.

A Kolpaker like Henderson, however good he was a county level IS/WAS never any good at International level.

Players like Sutcliffe and Chiltern you are correct are never gonna be good enough for England, but they ARE english. How can you say Louw or Kruis will have the county at heart, when they hardly stay for more than 1 season at a time?????

Whereas IMO there is a greater possibility of Chiltern being more likely to encourage help those english youngsters at Lancs????

Sack the rivalries Chas, I was never on about that. I'm on about Chilton and Sutcliffe - two players in a team with minimal/no Kolpaks. But you're right, although they clearly aren't anywhere near good enough for international cricket, they're improving the pool of English players? I'll have to say 'spare me' to that notion.

In no way improving the pool. But Someone like Chiltern is more likely to be loyal to his county and aid in development than a mercenary like Louw.

Henderson no good at international level, so what exactly? If he's good enough for county level, what exactly matters? That he's testing our English players, is my answer. Were Ramps, Salisbury, Batty - whoever any good at international level? No? So should they, in essence, be playing County Cricket? Yes? Why, because they're English yet they wont help improve the pool of English players because they're non-events at the higher level?

Again, I'd rather a young english spinner be playing than a non-event at international cricket Kolpaker.

Loyalty? No-one wanted utter crock Ben Phillips, we took him. He's left now, to do what's best for him. Nice loyalty from these caring English.... He spent 4 years at Nothants, and asked to move for his family to Somerset as I understand??? Hardly disloyal in comparison to the 1 season wonder Kolpaks???

quote:

Originally posted by tasty tyke:
Don't you think the main reason there arn't great up and coming great English palyers because in this day and age cricket is a minority sport in this country? Kids that are really good at sport get pushed towards other sports early on, that leaves space in the game for those who are mediocre to play for clubs and counties.

Kolpak players aren't responcible for society's attitude to the game, they're just a consequence of the circumtances cricket finds itself in, in this country.

quote:

Originally posted by holcs:
Ange, Its generally the same in many sports in this country to be fair, and I say the same about Rugby and to an extent lower league football as well.

To many places being taken by non-english players which leads to a decrease in the number of possibilities for young english players.

It is in my mind one of the reasons we are sh1te at sport at the moment.

Short term game is more important, especially in FC cricket than longevity and home grown talent.

Danny, has the former view, whereas as you may well be able to tell i have the latter.

quote:

Spot on sexy Ange. Nail on the head.

quote:

Originally posted by Comical Smoking Monkey:
You're not particularly grasping the point. I don't want duff Kolpaks playing. I'd rather young Anglos playing to 'improve the pool'. However, I'm saying if there obviously aren't any players to fill the shoes, get yourself a Kolpak. I'm sure the counties choose the Kolpak on the premise they think he's good, as they would were the young Anglo. Who should - which you are avoiding - be playing instead of Henderson? No-one. He's Leics' best option, a good option seeming as he can hack the county circuit and come out with some good figures/influences on a few matches.

Phillips moved to Somerset, to 'be closer to his family' - who live in Kent. About 80-100 miles further than Northampton to Kent. I haven't seen any one season wonder Kolpaks here so I can't say. What I can say though, is if they're OSW's then it's hardly going to ruin the development of the young player who's place has been taken...

quote:

Originally posted by holcs:
To be honest I was agueing for Phillips for the sake of it really.

But more importantly. I see your point Danny I do. If they ain't an english youngster whose good enough get a Kolpak? Right????

Well I disagree. If there isn't a good enough youngster don't get a run of the mill player who couldn't cut it, spend that 20k+ on developing a youngster. Spend that 20k on something that will benefit any potential youngsters coming thru, instead of chucking it away for a couple of seasons on a Kolpak.

Ok, if the Kolpak player is not a OSW. OK, say he's there for 3 years, thats say 90k in wages, and thats a very low estimate, as a capped player gets about 40k i believe. You tell me that you honestly think that 90k is better spent on a bloke who couldn't make it for his county and just comes over here for the money? Or would it be better spent on developing and providing coaching for say a group of 10 youngsters with potential from the age of 17-20? Thats the crux of the matter IMO?

quote:

Originally posted by Comical Smoking Monkey:

quote:

Originally posted by holcs:
To be honest I was agueing for Phillips for the sake of it really.

But more importantly. I see your point Danny I do. If they ain't an english youngster whose good enough get a Kolpak? Right????

Well I disagree. If there isn't a good enough youngster don't get a run of the mill player who couldn't cut it, spend that 20k+ on developing a youngster. Spend that 20k on something that will benefit any potential youngsters coming thru, instead of chucking it away for a couple of seasons on a Kolpak.

Ok, if the Kolpak player is not a OSW. OK, say he's there for 3 years, thats say 90k in wages, and thats a very low estimate, as a capped player gets about 40k i believe. You tell me that you honestly think that 90k is better spent on a bloke who couldn't make it for his county and just comes over here for the money? Or would it be better spent on developing and providing coaching for say a group of 10 youngsters with potential from the age of 17-20? Thats the crux of the matter IMO?

My point was slightly skewed. It should say if you haven't anyone good enough and the run-of-the-mill dump about think they're so special they deserve fat wages, get a Kolpak who'll be of a similar standard and cost less. I hear alot about the Kolpaks costing tons, I know that they're usually on less than the rest of the staff, relatively of course - depends as your stature as a member of the County circuit and your stature as a Kolpak. That's almost the whole point of Kolpaks, they do a job for less money.

Money that IMO is better spent on a summer contract for a youngster....

I would totally agree about spending the money on development provided there was guaranteed results, but there isn't. Broke jokes like N'hants can't particularly afford to speculate. It's year after year survival really, and that goes back to some of your points - which I can totally understand. However, considering that we keep popping out under-19 players who could maybe kick on further(T Bailey, Loye, Sales, Warren, Swann, Davies, Panesar, G White, Nelson) etc. it doesn't hold too much water. The fact of the matter is selections for the national team are contentious at best and I view it of no fault of the Counties at all who get picked. Young players like these have to keep on working hard at their game continuously, strive to be better and they will get in the team and when they do, they're considered proper players by their counties and the Kolpaks get dropped like hot potatoes...