Thats the crux isn't it. If there is an utter dirth of FM bowlers do you keep persisting with trying to develop/find one? Or do you hire a Kolpak such as Pieterson.
I'm of the opinion you keep trying until you find one. Its not going to cost you anymore money......
Well, Shantry had a massive whinge, wanted more money and thought it was his divine right to get into the team - even though at the time there was Damien Wright, Johann Louw and Ben Phillips as our pace attack, with Monty and Brown complimenting them. So basically, the Counties are at the whim of sooky youngsters who can't dig in and earn their place. What's the point of developing him, if there's - as you'd put it - a Kolpak-style of loyalty involved with them?
Pietersen, incidentally, is a duff lemon who is still living off the back of the best ever OD figures in the 50-over cup. Signing someone like Wigley is no better for us...
Thats the crux isn't it. If there is an utter dirth of FM bowlers do you keep persisting with trying to develop/find one? Or do you hire a Kolpak such as Pieterson.
I'm of the opinion you keep trying until you find one. Its not going to cost you anymore money......
Well, Shantry had a massive whinge, wanted more money and thought it was his divine right to get into the team - even though at the time there was Damien Wright, Johann Louw and Ben Phillips as our pace attack, with Monty and Brown complimenting them. So basically, the Counties are at the whim of sooky youngsters who can't dig in and earn their place. What's the point of developing him, if there's - as you'd put it - a Kolpak-style of loyalty involved with them?
Pietersen, incidentally, is a duff lemon who is still living off the back of the best ever OD figures in the 50-over cup. Signing someone like Wigley is no better for us...
Originally posted by holcs: Its cos you had a Kolpak in Louw playing!
Aye, but he was worth his weight in gold. Wickets with the old ball on an utter road. Something Shantry wouldn't have brought, something we needed and something that Shantry didn't really need - getting muntered on dead 'uns. Moreso, we didn't need him to do that, we're always desperate for promotion or winning trophies like all counties, so they can improve their funds through prize money and hopefully chuck some of that money to develop youngsters at the club.
Originally posted by Comical Smoking Monkey:So basically, the Counties are at the whim of sooky youngsters who can't dig in and earn their place. What's the point of developing him, if there's - as you'd put it - a Kolpak-style of loyalty involved with them?
Ummmmmmm . . . because, ultimately, it's supposed to be about producing players for the National team . . . ?
Originally posted by holcs: Its cos you had a Kolpak in Louw playing!
Aye, but he was worth his weight in gold. Wickets with the old ball on an utter road. Something Shantry wouldn't have brought, something we needed and something that Shantry didn't really need - getting muntered on dead 'uns. Moreso, we didn't need him to do that, we're always desperate for promotion or winning trophies like all counties, so they can improve their funds through prize money and hopefullychuck some of that money to develop youngsters at the club.
But wouldn't Shantry have learnt more from gtting muntered than watching from the sidelines? I use Mark Gillespie from NZ as an example. He is learning more from getting smashed about in a couple of ODI games - by Sanath, the aussies, than he has ever learnt from netting or even State cricket in NZ.
Depending on which Kolpak is available no doubt!
Vicious circle hey? Danny don't get me wrong I understand the needs for trophies, and promotion etc. But unfortunately this is where we as a national side fall down IMO.
Counties are out for themselves, not for the betterment of the national side. Because at the end of the day its about prize money and trophies.
I would just like to see. Less overseas in whatever way they are here, and more english players playing. Maybe thats because I don't really support a County side as you do?
Originally posted by Comical Smoking Monkey:So basically, the Counties are at the whim of sooky youngsters who can't dig in and earn their place. What's the point of developing him, if there's - as you'd put it - a Kolpak-style of loyalty involved with them?
Ummmmmmm . . . because, ultimately, it's supposed to be about producing players for the National team . . . ?
Taily, that is the set-up you have in Aus. Unfortunately we have a slightly archaic set-up here, where the counties are independants almost and first and foremost is themselves IMO, and National cricketers and their development become second.
Originally posted by tailender: Ummmmmmm . . . because, ultimately, it's supposed to be about producing players for the National team . . . ?
So you pander to the needs of the youngsters who could well either bomb out of cricket within a year because it turns out they're not good enough, or they leave for better prospects.
I understand that could be construed as the name of the game, but considering that we may as well have been a principality for the last 15 years, with our players(until Monty) coldly overlooked for no statistical reason and the fact the powers that be have tried to mess(replacing a different word) us over a few times in the past - you can understand a few counties being insular, given how the system has treated them.
Originally posted by tailender: I know, Charlesie. And that attitude seems to be duplicated by Danny.
What hope when the fans themselves think the same way the County OldBoysClub do?
Nah, I don't think Danny has the same mindset as the fuddy duddy county bigwigs as such. He's juggling the good of his supported county against the good of his national side.
I find myself in agreement with Leela. Something must be wrong.
Point is though that the countys are dependent on handouts from the ECB for their continued survivial unlike in football- so there priority should be to make the England team more competitive. Its hard enough to compete in a country with a declining birthrate, without limiting the opportunities of youngsters by signing mediocre players not good enough to make it at international level.
I mean, Hylton Ackerman? As a captain? Hes a joke.
Ive caught a fashion from the dreams of tapirs But woke up sweating from this modern nightmare
Originally posted by holcs: But wouldn't Shantry have learnt more from gtting muntered than watching from the sidelines? I use Mark Gillespie from NZ as an example. He is learning more from getting smashed about in a couple of ODI games - by Sanath, the aussies, than he has ever learnt from netting or even State cricket in NZ.
Depending on which Kolpak is available no doubt!
Vicious circle hey? Danny don't get me wrong I understand the needs for trophies, and promotion etc. But unfortunately this is where we as a national side fall down IMO.
Counties are out for themselves, not for the betterment of the national side. Because at the end of the day its about prize money and trophies.
I would just like to see. Less overseas in whatever way they are here, and more english players playing. Maybe thats because I don't really support a County side as you do?
He may have done. He ran through UnZud in an OD game and since then thought he was 'big potatoes'. Seemed to me he was going to leave for a bigger club like Warks anyway, we have no loyalty from the ECB, we didn't have any from him, so why should we be think about the bigger picture? As you say, if I didn't support my county, I may well be with you. But I do guarantee that we play our Kolpaks if they deserve it. We play our youth if they deserve it.
There could be 3 or 4 more England players from our bundle and a couple more who deserved the shots, which doesn't endorse the effect the Kolpaks have, considering our moderate use of them.
Originally posted by tailender: Ummmmmmm . . . because, ultimately, it's supposed to be about producing players for the National team . . . ?
So you pander to the needs of the youngsters who could well either bomb out of cricket within a year because it turns out they're not good enough, or they leave for better prospects.
I understand that could be construed as the name of the game, but considering that we may as well have been a principality for the last 15 years, with our players(until Monty) coldly overlooked for no statistical reason and the fact the powers that be have tried to mess(replacing a different word) us over a few times in the past - you can understand a few counties being insular, given how the system has treated them.
Not all overlooked, some helped in their own downfall I beleve.
Didn't Swann mess up in SA? Sales had some issues as well when he was banded about.
Loye, Brown are really the only two that I can remeber that maybe could've appeared but were overlooked?
Originally posted by holcs: But wouldn't Shantry have learnt more from gtting muntered than watching from the sidelines? I use Mark Gillespie from NZ as an example. He is learning more from getting smashed about in a couple of ODI games - by Sanath, the aussies, than he has ever learnt from netting or even State cricket in NZ.
Depending on which Kolpak is available no doubt!
Vicious circle hey? Danny don't get me wrong I understand the needs for trophies, and promotion etc. But unfortunately this is where we as a national side fall down IMO.
Counties are out for themselves, not for the betterment of the national side. Because at the end of the day its about prize money and trophies.
I would just like to see. Less overseas in whatever way they are here, and more english players playing. Maybe thats because I don't really support a County side as you do?
He may have done. He ran through UnZud in an OD game and since then thought he was 'big potatoes'. Seemed to me he was going to leave for a bigger club like Warks anyway, we have no loyalty from the ECB, we didn't have any from him, so why should we be think about the bigger picture? As you say, if I didn't support my county, I may well be with you. But I do guarantee that we play our Kolpaks if they deserve it. We play our youth if they deserve it.
There could be 3 or 4 more England players from our bundle and a couple more who deserved the shots, which doesn't endorse the effect the Kolpaks have, considering our moderate use of them.
Although the Kolpak ruling is only in the last couple of years, so before that it was 1/2 overseas and that was it.
And during that period youy produced the guys who were overlooked. Now with Kolpaks, what have you got in the form of youth or promising english players coming through?
Originally posted by holcs: Not all overlooked, some helped in their own downfall I beleve.
Didn't Swann mess up in SA? Sales had some issues as well when he was banded about.
Loye, Brown are really the only two that I can remeber that maybe could've appeared but were overlooked?
Swann got on the coach late. Once. Bye bye internationals.
Sales - yeah, he was the same weight as Rob Key once and as we know, Rob Key never played for England.
Depends how far you want to go back Chas, AFAIC, it's a case of two players vying for one place and they have similar stats - go for the one that isn't from Northants.
Originally posted by holcs: Not all overlooked, some helped in their own downfall I beleve.
Didn't Swann mess up in SA? Sales had some issues as well when he was banded about.
Loye, Brown are really the only two that I can remeber that maybe could've appeared but were overlooked?
Swann got on the coach late. Once. Bye bye internationals.
Sales - yeah, he was the same weight as Rob Key once and as we know, Rob Key never played for England.
Depends how far you want to go back Chas, AFAIC, it's a case of two players vying for one place and they have similar stats - go for the one that isn't from Northants.
Blobby did lose alot of weight. Not sure Sales did however.
Originally posted by holcs: Although the Kolpak ruling is only in the last couple of years, so before that it was 1/2 overseas and that was it.
And during that period youy produced the guys who were overlooked. Now with Kolpaks, what have you got in the form of youth or promising english players coming through?
Graeme White, Mark Nelson, Mark Phythian and Riki Wessels. Nelson got a ton and some wickets v Ind Under-19 this year, Graeme White was the best bowler in the ODs and Tests(maybe Rashid in the Tests), Phythian is at Durham Uni which is usually a sign of a decent player and Riki Wessels is a cracking glover and devastating batsman(when he's not being an arrogant twit)
Originally posted by holcs: Blobby did lose alot of weight. Not sure Sales did however.
I see your point there though.
To my mind, Sales has never been as big as Rob Key. He's more agile in the field and quicker between the wickets. He lost the weight thinking it may help his selection but it didn't, and now with 4 kids to look after it seems to have been put back on. But also, considering Fat Key and Fat Flintoff were in the same squad and FatGatt hadn't long retired, I found the hypocrisy to be huge(pardon the pun)
Originally posted by holcs: Although the Kolpak ruling is only in the last couple of years, so before that it was 1/2 overseas and that was it.
And during that period youy produced the guys who were overlooked. Now with Kolpaks, what have you got in the form of youth or promising english players coming through?
Graeme White, Mark Nelson, Mark Phythian and Riki Wessels. Nelson got a ton and some wickets v Ind Under-19 this year, Graeme White was the best bowler in the ODs and Tests(maybe Rashid in the Tests), Phythian is at Durham Uni which is usually a sign of a decent player and Riki Wessels is a cracking glover and devastating batsman(when he's not being an arrogant twit)
Ah a decent bunch then, although isn't Wessels a Kolpak youngster?
, but he was worth his weight in gold. Wickets with the old ball on an utter road. Something Shantry wouldn't have brought, something we needed and something that Shantry didn't really need - getting muntered on dead 'uns. Moreso, we didn't need him to do that, we're always desperate for promotion or winning trophies like all counties, so they can improve their funds through prize money and hopefully chuck some of that money to develop youngsters at the club
