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Originally posted by Josh C:

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Originally posted by *Chandan*:

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Originally posted by Josh C:
Chandan, have a read of the link posted by HH on the previous page titled "the real culprits".

Josh I've watches almost every match that India has played in last 5 years. I don't need an article to tell me who played well and who did not.

And for me, every match is important, whether they're played at home, away, at neutral venue, during the league phase or decider!! In fact I never had that much of interest in doing those stats sums!!

The difference is that whilst most Indian players score freely at home, be it Dhoni or Uthappa or Oothapam or Masala Dosa it is only a select few who are able to do reasonably well in alien conditions. We need to recognise that and differentiate. No point picking somebody on the back of some homestats if he is bound to fail elsewhere.

And what will happen if all the batsmen succeed only in alien condition and fail in home condition? Will that be acceptable to you?

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Originally posted by *Chandan*:

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Originally posted by Josh C:

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Originally posted by *Chandan*:

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Originally posted by Josh C:
Chandan, have a read of the link posted by HH on the previous page titled "the real culprits".

Josh I've watches almost every match that India has played in last 5 years. I don't need an article to tell me who played well and who did not.

And for me, every match is important, whether they're played at home, away, at neutral venue, during the league phase or decider!! In fact I never had that much of interest in doing those stats sums!!

The difference is that whilst most Indian players score freely at home, be it Dhoni or Uthappa or Oothapam or Masala Dosa it is only a select few who are able to do reasonably well in alien conditions. We need to recognise that and differentiate. No point picking somebody on the back of some homestats if he is bound to fail elsewhere.

And what will happen if all the batsmen succeed only in alien condition and fail in home condition? Will that be acceptable to you?

Thats a ridiculous statement to make!! Next you'll be asking "what happens if all the batsmen succeed in finals/knockout matches and fail in meaningless ones?"

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Originally posted by Gabbar Singh:

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Originally posted by *Chandan*:

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Originally posted by Josh C:

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Originally posted by *Chandan*:

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Originally posted by Josh C:
Chandan, have a read of the link posted by HH on the previous page titled "the real culprits".

Josh I've watches almost every match that India has played in last 5 years. I don't need an article to tell me who played well and who did not.

And for me, every match is important, whether they're played at home, away, at neutral venue, during the league phase or decider!! In fact I never had that much of interest in doing those stats sums!!

The difference is that whilst most Indian players score freely at home, be it Dhoni or Uthappa or Oothapam or Masala Dosa it is only a select few who are able to do reasonably well in alien conditions. We need to recognise that and differentiate. No point picking somebody on the back of some homestats if he is bound to fail elsewhere.

And what will happen if all the batsmen succeed only in alien condition and fail in home condition? Will that be acceptable to you?

Thats a ridiculous statement to make!! Next you'll be asking "what happens if all the batsmen succeed in finals/knockout matches and fail in meaningless ones?"

.
We may never get there since in the Indian context it is mostly the other way around.

When India's senior bats like Laxman, SRT, SG and RD retire and when they look back at their careers, Will they only look at the misleading statistics that imply greatness, or will they deep down their hearts face the truth that given the team they amde, they could have achieved more and India should have won more tests, series and finals than they do now.

Fact is that while great batsmen in teams like SL, Aus, SA and Pak [barring the last 2 years] have raised their games in matches that really matter, India's best have always crumbled and underachieved and done the opposite and that is to cow down and surrender, save some brilliant flashes occasionally.

Will they be able to look back with sincere appreciation and gratification or will it be one of regret and guilt of not having done enough?

The examples that you cite of the other countries, are all backed up by a much superior bowling line-up.

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Fact is that while great batsmen in teams like SL

Do you even know what's the overseas record of SL in test cricket?

As for teams like Aus, SA and Eng, feel free (in your free time) to compare their bowlers' stats (for ANY decade) with their Indian counterparts.

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As for teams like Aus, SA and Eng,

Same is true for Pak as well. Their bowling lineup too is always (more often than not) in top-3 bowling lineups of world cricket.

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Will they only look at the misleading statistics that imply greatness,

They've been hailed as greats by far more accomplished, astute and renowned judges of the game and hence I don't think they'll feel any need to get that certificate from a very small minority of fans.

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great batsmen in teams like SL,

A batsman's true test of character comes in overseas tests and most of SL's leading batsmen have been found wanting in overseas tests.

Here is a small analysis.

De Silva: Home: 52; Away: 36

Ranatunga: Home: 41; Away: 31

Jaya: Home: 44; Away: 36

Sanga: Home: 53; Away: 48 (I still rate Sanga very highly and I'm sure he'll rectify his home/away record soon)

Mahela: Home: 60; Away: 36

PS: It also underlines the fact what an influence Murali has on SL's fortunes and that old saying bowlers wins you matches.

And now compare these stats with the stats of 4 Indian bats you named in your post.

SRT: Home: 55; Away: 54

Dravid: Home: 52; Away: 62

VVS: Home: 42; Away: 42

Ganguly: Home: 36; Away: 44

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Originally posted by Surender Goel:

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Fact is that while great batsmen in teams like SL

Do you even know what's the overseas record of SL in test cricket?

Lanka's overall record is still better than India's if you bar results against Bangals and Zimboks since 1990. I didn't know that man to man the lieks of Mahela, Ranatunga and Aravinda were better bats than the likes of SRT, Dravid, laxman etc. on statistics. Lanka excpet Murali has had the lesser bolwing than Indians more but have a more team attitude than our players. At least guys like Jaya and Aravinda have played pressure amtches better than India which is why India has just 3 1 clean finals win in 20 finals against Lanka winning nearly half their finals. Lanka's one day record against teams like NZ, WI and SA is also far superior than India's in the last decade. Pakistan has also won more titles than India despite being inconsistant. Pak has had as much a struggling bowling side as SL or India since last WC but have still done a better job results wise. India has been underachievers in both tests and ODIs despite having a statistically the best team for years.

Nothing justifies the amount of choking in most crunch matches that symbolises India's record the last 10 years. Like I said statistics are often misleading which is why superior records have not translated in more ODI wins as has been Lanka's case or more test wins as has been Pak's case since 1990. You are free to interpret it whichever way suits your needs the best.

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Originally posted by Gabbar Singh:

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Originally posted by *Chandan*:

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Originally posted by Josh C:

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Originally posted by *Chandan*:

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Originally posted by Josh C:
Chandan, have a read of the link posted by HH on the previous page titled "the real culprits".

Josh I've watches almost every match that India has played in last 5 years. I don't need an article to tell me who played well and who did not.

And for me, every match is important, whether they're played at home, away, at neutral venue, during the league phase or decider!! In fact I never had that much of interest in doing those stats sums!!

The difference is that whilst most Indian players score freely at home, be it Dhoni or Uthappa or Oothapam or Masala Dosa it is only a select few who are able to do reasonably well in alien conditions. We need to recognise that and differentiate. No point picking somebody on the back of some homestats if he is bound to fail elsewhere.

And what will happen if all the batsmen succeed only in alien condition and fail in home condition? Will that be acceptable to you?

Thats a ridiculous statement to make!! Next you'll be asking "what happens if all the batsmen succeed in finals/knockout matches and fail in meaningless ones?"

Your example is superb and this is what I actually wanted to say. In my example, home performance is equally important because since you've grown playing in those conditions, you must perform well. Hence saying that such and such batsman performs well in alien condition and even if he doesn't perform well in home conditions, he should be rated highly, is foolish. And mind you, home victories are as important as any other victory.

Likewise as you gave the example, saying that certain player doesn't deliver when the situation demands i,e, in the final of any tournament is also as foolish, if he has performed well in the league phase and has helped reach his team into the final!!

Thus these selective stats are skewed. You should look for batsmen who can perform everywhere, in every situation. Saying that one condition is more important than other, is just foolish!

If you fail in the meaningless matches you may not get to the finals. Ask Pakistan.

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Originally posted by Surender Goel:
And now compare these stats with the stats of 4 Indian bats you named in your post.

SRT: Home: 55; Away: 54

Dravid: Home: 52; Away: 62

VVS: Home: 42; Away: 42

Ganguly: Home: 36; Away: 44

add to that sehwag home 52, away 48.

batting has been the least of indias worries. the only place they have consistenty struggled is SA.

It is probably true that the Indian team has under-achieved a little. The WIndies tour in 2002 and some others like NZ home and away. But, except the recent win in Johannesburg(?), I struggle to recall too many matches that the bowlers have won us, or even saved. I believe most of the achievements of the last few years have been despite having the bowlers we have.

its incredible that india have not produced a single sub-25 avg bowler in their history. even NZ have produced 2. i wouldnt be surprised if bangladesh get one before us.

the batsman get to bear the brunt of fans frustrations since we are used to having no world class bowlers so lash out on the players we actually have expectation from. 40 yrs on, ppl will be telling their grandchildren stories of the big 5s batting exploits...enjoy it while it lasts

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Originally posted by Ash:
its incredible that india have not produced a single sub-25 avg bowler in their history. even NZ have produced 2. i wouldnt be surprised if bangladesh get one before us.

the batsman get to bear the brunt of fans frustrations since we are used to having no world class bowlers so lash out on the players we actually have expectation from. 40 yrs on, ppl will be telling their grandchildren stories of the big 5s batting exploits...enjoy it while it lasts

Heartily agree. I find it quite strange too that there is hardly any discussion of our (yes, a case only with the Indian fans on here) bowlers and their performances on a well-informed forum like this.

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Originally posted by *Chandan*:

Likewise as you gave the example, saying that certain player doesn't deliver when the situation demands i,e, in the final of any tournament is also as foolish, if he has performed well in the league phase and has helped reach his team into the final!!

Thus these selective stats are skewed.

How many times have I said that to the Tendulkar detractors around me?.

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Originally posted by Bruce Wayne Returns:

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Originally posted by Surender Goel:

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Fact is that while great batsmen in teams like SL

Do you even know what's the overseas record of SL in test cricket?

Lanka's overall record is still better than India's if you bar results against Bangals and Zimboks since 1990. I didn't know that man to man the lieks of Mahela, Ranatunga and Aravinda were better bats than the likes of SRT, Dravid, laxman etc. on statistics. Lanka excpet Murali has had the lesser bolwing than Indians more but have a more team attitude than our players. At least guys like Jaya and Aravinda have played pressure amtches better than India which is why India has just 3 1 clean finals win in 20 finals against Lanka winning nearly half their finals. Lanka's one day record against teams like NZ, WI and SA is also far superior than India's in the last decade. Pakistan has also won more titles than India despite being inconsistant. Pak has had as much a struggling bowling side as SL or India since last WC but have still done a better job results wise. India has been underachievers in both tests and ODIs despite having a statistically the best team for years.

Nothing justifies the amount of choking in most crunch matches that symbolises India's record the last 10 years. Like I said statistics are often misleading which is why superior records have not translated in more ODI wins as has been Lanka's case or more test wins as has been Pak's case since 1990. You are free to interpret it whichever way suits your needs the best.

I'd be happier if India won all matches in the lead up to finals and lost in all the finals than if they barely scraped through and won in the finals every time. Just saying.

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Originally posted by doremi:
It is probably true that the Indian team has under-achieved a little. The WIndies tour in 2002 and some others like NZ home and away. But, except the recent win in Johannesburg(?), I struggle to recall too many matches that the bowlers have won us, or even saved. I believe most of the achievements of the last few years have been despite having the bowlers we have.

Saving matches is more the responsibility of batsmen, and our famed record breaking batters have always let the team down and have not even batted out 2 complete sessions on the last day on most occasions.

Our bowlers set us up a final against Aus in 2004 and Aus were with their second string bowling attack. We still couldn't chase 235 to win at home. Pathan and Co. set us up in the last Pak test in Pak 2005. batters threw it away. Same was the case in Kolkotta against pak in 1999 in the Asian test Championship. It was our batting that let us down against Zim in Harare in 2001 when the likes of SRT, Dravid and Ganguly decided to shut shop against the likes of Ray Price and co. The last test against SA that we lost 3 months back was again lost by our batetrs led by Dravid and principally Sehwag and Sachin even though India had the upper hand and for no fault of our bowling. The last test against Pak at Bangalore at home in 2005 is another example of batting spinelessness when batters like Sachin prod at the ball with 7 fielders around him. The bowlers couldn't be faulted for that. India had a 195/1 start at Melbourne test in 2004 and yet we lost the remaining 9 wickets for 70-80 runs conceding the test. Then there is Barbados 1997 and our inability to bat out the Kiwis on our home soil in 2003. Our famed batting lineup crumbled in low scoring tests in NZ [2002 - 03] and SA at home in 2000 where the bowlers set us up and we had a better batting lineup to go that extra mile but we didn't.

I can go and list quite a lot of such instances. That we had a so caleld 'weak' bowling all this time is an understatement and an underrated theory. SL and Pak have not had that much better bolwing attacks consistantly during this time either except Pak till 2000. One is frustrated when one sees the countless number of matches that Srinath, Kumble, Prasad, Kuruvilla, Zaheer, Pathan or someone else set us up and when our arrogant batsman blew it away with their unproffesional millionaire approach. Had even half those matches been saved or won with a little more application or commitment, our stats would have looked much different today.

Individual brilliance is all we got from our famed batters which is why as a team we have always underachieved and always will in the current set up. An experienced batter like Sachin should know what his job is when a test is there for the saving and if he keeps wetting his **** and has the coach telling him what his job is he has no business running to the media squealing to the press because the truth is offensive.

No one is above the game. No one. Not Ganguly, Not Sachin, Not Dravid and not their so called wonderful records to say the least. People not commited to the team cause and out there to bask in selective individual glory should be shown the door at the earliest.

Brilliant rhetoric there, Vikas.