halam says that I have a :"narrow minded view of 'my way or the highway'".
- I find your post extremely rude but to reply very briefly (frankly I am fed up with this whole forum) if you don't like reading the facts, DO NOT read the facts. Don't read my posts if it upsets you so much to read research from WHO and UNICEF.

I think it is a case of "shooting the messanger" when it comes to discussions of bf and dummies on this forum.

Totally agree Halam, well said!

Olivegreen, you may have the benefit of hours of looking at WHO and UNICEF, and I have indeed dabbled. However, as well as being a mom, I am also a teacher and early years professional, so I too have studied the 'facts' and consider myself to be VERY up to date with research. What no-one can argue with is the way an INDIVIDUAL CHILD reacts to things, be it the use of dummies, breastfeeding, not breastfeeding or anything else attached to a child and bringing them up. I advocate a much broader outlook, knowing that all children are different, and I believe no 'amount of facts' can argue with that.

I could quote you a long list of sources for anything to do with babies and children if you so wish, but this forum is a place for advice and comments, not a place to conduct a PHD.

This is an informal forum of general discussion about childrearing, mums and dads give their advice and general experiences of bringing up children. It is great to have someone to empathise with, if one wants scientific research and facts then this is the wrong place; go to the Lancet or BMA etc instead.

Halam, just because you share a different opinion to a couple of other people on this forum does not make you rude, quite the opposite really! Seems to me that a few here do scare new mums by taking at them with their scientific facts and information, can put people off instead of encouraging. Just because one does not bf or use a dummy does not make them a bad mother, we all do our best and have different situations, this is not a perfect world after all we would not be here would we!

And there lies my point PIGLETMANIA, we are here to do our best for OUR baby. What works for you works for you and no amount of facts can argue that.

Just a point to think upon for anyone interested. It's 3am, your baby has been crying for hours, you have tried feeding, changing nappies, cuddles, songs. As a mom you are exhausted, you need your sleep, if you don't you can't function properly the next day when your baby will need you again. You disregard all the things you have heard about dummies, and try it, and it works. The baby settles down and sleeps, meaning you get the rest you need and deserve too.

This happened to me, I was worried after all the horror stories I'd heard about dummies. The best thing was the next day when I realised I needn't have worried because he still fed off me correctly. I can't tell you the relief I felt knowing that he could have a dummy and breastfeed. Oh and regarding his teeth, he has 8 now, and the doctor commented the other day on how nice, straight and strong they were.
Now there's a fact you won't find in any official document!

halamw - I agree with you totally - we all do what we think is best for baby and the family as a whole. Only you and you alone know your baby...as regards the 'dummy debate' I gave my first daughter a dummy and it totally soothed her...she suffered no ill effect and now at nearly 8 she has perfect teeth and no fillings (some children I know have several fillings and have had to have some teeth taken out) With my second daughter I tried her with a dummy and she showed no interest...luckily she is in a good routine and does not seem to need one. I also worried that because she would not take one that she would end up sucking her thumb, fingers etc but this does not seem to be the case.

At the end of the day, I firmly believe that you can only do what you think is best for baby....and if you are confident in what you are doing then this can only benefit baby too.

here here!!!

Totally agree with Karen99 and Halem. Scientific evidence can also be flawed, it is not 100% fullproof. I do not agree with the statement as quoted by OG given by WHO
with regards to bf, its basically a one size fits all policy, with no regards to women's individuality or situation, thus being very narrow in my opinion.

The community Midwife told me to supplement bf with bottle as my babies health was dehydrated and hungry, so i did this as i would do anything to help my baby. Eventually my milk dried, despite regular pumping. I am not prepared to use donated milk, or wet nurse as it is not a long term or practical solution, so formula was the best solution.

It seems that some women on this thread would like ladies to continue bf even despite the womans' or babies health. I would never continue something that is not working and my babies health is suffering, just so i can say i bf and be in that ELITE group who do.

these threads always end up like this which is frankly why many mums like myself avoid such discussions like the plague.

everything factual or scientific is seen as a personal ATTACK on you as a person or as a mother.

i think this says a lot about the person at the receiving end of these discussions and not much about what is actually being said.

I think that we shall agree to disagree then!

Olivegreen - nobody wishes to attack you personally. We all have different views/opinions/experiences and these shape the way that we wish to raise our own children. I am in no way dismissive of anything scientific and am open to listen to anything which may help me in making decisions. All that some of us are merely saying is that we have DIFFERENT views - not that they are better or right, just that they are DIFFERENT.

I think we can all agree that medical advice changes quite frequently. It used to be the case that babies were placed on their fronts to sleep, now it is on their backs. I am aware of why this is and of course most mums follow this practice. This is an example of us mums listening to medical and scientific advice. In one thread, I think it was Pigletmania said that she gave her baby rice in a bottle. Now the medical advice is not to do this, but she was told by an experienced GP to do this. You see, even though there is medical/scientific advice out there, it is sometimes conflicting and it results in parents being even more anxious and worried.

I am sorry that you feel it is a personal attack on you OLIVEGREEN. As with all forums, and indeed any type of advice sources, its always best to have a balanced view. It helps people to weigh up the alternatives and then decide.
There will probably be as many people out there who agree with you as disagree, but what it all boils down to is the personal decision of the parent who is reading this.
If we go back to the original post that began this thread, she wanted some opinions and views about whether to give her baby a dummy, and that is what has been done. This topic will always be contentious because of all the opinions and feelings people have about it. What would be irresponsible when answering this request would be NOT to post the positive experience of other people and dummies, because then, how is a new mom supposed to arrive at an informed decision, and put things into perspective?

Luckily it seems that the first poster has made up her mind about what to do, but I hope that other people who have read the different experiences of giving dummies to children who were undecided have been helped to make a decision about whether to give their child a dummy or not.

All views are valuable, and can be used to make an informed choice. You definitely need the pros and the cons before one is able to make this decision. During my pregnancy, this was my first child, I vowed never to use a dummy, and had all the scientific information that stated that dummies can impair speech, responsible for teeth alignment etc. However, Katie had such bad colic, that after doing all the things that i could do (soothing, cuddling, rocking etc), I had to resort to one. I only use it now to help her to sleep, then take it out once she has dropped off, or if cannot consol her with cuddles alone.

It is down to the individual, at the end of the day you are the one with the baby alone sometimes, so you have to do what you think is right. By the way i had a dummy and have lovely straight teeth(I don't wish to boast).

Come to think of it, all my best intentions went out of the window. Wanted to bf, now i bottle feed, started to use washable nappies, now had to resort to disposable, well natural ones at least(due to really bad eczema on my hands), wowed never to use a dummy, now I use one, and own several he he he.

No need to sound so apologetic about it PIGLETMANIA you are doing the right thing for you baby and thats all that counts!!

I started with cloth nappies too!!! Now I use those nature baby dosposables. See you can have a perfect ideal about how you wish to bring up your baby, but when it comes down to it, you end up doing what is best, and not discounting easiest, for you and your baby!!! And lets not forget Convenient!!!

The thing is, you are BOTH right. Olive is usually giving the facts (sorry, should that be 'the FACTS!') which she backs up with medical research etc. Breast IS best. Dummy use MAY interfere with breast feeding. However, sometimes she uses personal observation (eg. she has never seen a bf toddler sucking its thumb. I was bf myself, and sucked my thumb until I was 8 - though only when I was upset and I wouldn't do it in front of people.) Olive, most of what you say is very sensible and true, but you are coming across badly because you are not being clear on the boundaries between your opinion and facts. And because it is not clear that you UNDERSTAND THERE ARE EXCEPTIONS.

We all know the statistic that 98% of women are physically able to bf. So even if there were only 50 women posting here - one of them is NOT able to do so. And that 2% is before we take into considerations complications during labour that mean bf is not possible in the first few hours, making it much harder to succeed. Yes, with proper support, most of these would eventually be able to bf. But the support isn't always there. (Clearly, I was very very lucky. The midwives were wonderful when I was trying to bf in hospital. It took me 4 days to get him latched on without help, and they wouldn't let me leave the hospital til I could do it.) And it was 6 weeks before I could do it relatively easily and painlessly, but my midwife was wonderfully supportive.

Anyway, I've rambled off the point. My point is, Karen and Halamw are right that the parents should be able to decide what to do, but NOT if it is against the best interests of the child. Which is where those capitalised FACTS come in again. Where expert opinion is divided (dummy use, controlled crying, etc) - parental choice is key - and information from BOTH sides of the argument needs to be available to parents. Where it is undisputably best to choose one path - such as bf - I personally would say it should NOT be a choice.

ALL mothers should attempt to bf while in hospital, (I can't imagine a home-birth mother choosing to bottle feed) and get considerably more support than they do at present. If they cannot do it, well and good, prescribe them formula. (Yes, prescribe it - if it isn't on sale it will not be seen as the 'normal' thing to feed your baby.)

But that is my opinion.

Oh yeah, and Olive didn't say she felt she was being attacked. She thought you thought she was attacking you. Let me clear this up too. NO ONE IS ATTACKING ANYONE. (Gosh, those capitals are just irresistable, aren't they?)

And while I was typing all that, Pigletmania said it much more succinctly. Do your research, then make an informed choice as to what is best for a baby - then change your mind as you learn more about what YOUR baby needs.

Yes I noticed that Nicky too! The support in the community for bf is not very good at all, with me they discovered too late that Katie was not getting enough milk from me. Yes bf is always the best, i can't understand those who say they will never give it a go. Doing formula feeds is definitely a bum, so much hassle really. I will defintiely seek out more support for next time. It is great to hear all your views, I have found some good information from the mums on this forum.

By the way, how do you know when bf that the baby is getting enough milk from yhou. The health professionals are obsessed with how many floz a baby should have each day, and they can make snap decisions about your baby that can affect bf.

Nicky - although I agree with most of what you say and thanks for clearing up the personal attack thing, I most certainly don't feel attacked. I actually meant that others here seem to feel attacked by my posts. As for the capitalisation, it is not because I need to shout, I just can't be bothered to use bold all the time

As for the thumb sucking, of course it depends on the child, but also depends on the length of bf and the extent of it. Excuse the ealier anecdote, but all you have done is try to counter my anecdote with your own anecdote (i.e that you sucked your thumb despite being bf).
It is tempting to give examples from ones life, which I agree is totally unscientific.

I have read somewhere perhaps on kellymom.com or LLL website that children who bf for extended periods (beyond 2 years) tend not to suck their thumbs. If I find the source I will post it here later. I have to say that I see quite a few bf toddlers because of my involvement with LLL and none of them suck their thumbs, may be it is coincidence. I think putting in my personal experience of this should have stated that I have also read about it somewhere.

I honestly can not see how any of these things are value judgments or attacks. I too sucked my thumb and had dummies (and I have very nice straight teeth !!) until quite late and mum had only bf me until 6 months or so. Does this mean I should hate my mother for not bf me until I was 4 ?

It is absurd, I don't think our children will judge us for these things as they will be loved and know that we did the best we could in all the circumstances.

I don't think my son is going to adore me and love me more because I have bf for a very long time and not given him dummies, etc. Hopefully he will love my husband and I for lots of other reassons. I fail to see yet again why factual discussions have to end up in the gutter of "don't accuse me of being a bad parent" because frankly that is not what I am trying to do or why I am here. I also get fed up of having to explain this constantly.

Soem here have enjoyed my posts nad thanked me for the information I have provided and sai that it has made a difference to how tehy view some thing. Others haven't enjoyed my post and enevr will. C'est la vie, as they say in Mongolia

Nicky - my first sentence should not have the word "although" ! I meant that I do agree with most of what you say.

sorry also for all the terrible spelling, did it in a a hurry !

It's good to see that things can be resolved quickly with a bit of honest communication. I think it's easy to feel 'attacked' or to come across a bit 'aggressively', but that's what happens when people have real passion. Also, putting across 'factual information' is MEGA important every single time - how many mums do you know that put their baby on their front to sleep nowadays - we know better!!

Credited, medical opinion and advice changes all the time, but I'd rather we kept making progress than not - we can only act on the info we have available. However, I think it's silly to say we 'don't care' what the medical advice is - how can we ever make a balanced decision without being prepared to look at all the information? I'm not saying we will always proceed according to WHO etc, but surely we should never 'write off' what they say indiscriminately?

Keep up the good work Olive Green, many people on here are much better informed than they would be without you!! I don't always agree with you on these forums, but am certainly prepared to listen to your views!!