I get the impression that the ideas of continuum are held with almost religious ferver by many of those on this forum.
All 3 methods have their problems. I noticed tonight that one continuum family were not represented. They had struggled much more in the early stages and perhaps continued to struggle. Similarly one Spock family fell away. It is easy to rubbish all of the methods based on one or two of the more extreeme ideas.
50's routine from birth. Spock breast feeding in toilets Continuum - sharing a bed with a baby (particularly alarming for me as a doctor who has tried - and failed to resucitate a baby overlain and suffocated)
All have useful elements
Spock in that it empowers mothers. Routine allows children to feel confident where they are and what is going to happen. Continuum encouraging bonding.
Remember natural is not always good. Natural childbirth - 10% infant mortality - 1%maternal mortality.
My children are brought up with a lot of love, a little routine especially around bedtime and trusting our instincts to get it right.
" All 3 methods have their problems. I noticed tonight that one continuum family were not represented. They had struggled much more in the early stages and perhaps continued to struggle. "
Isn't it funny that you saw that? I didn't see that at all. I saw that the continuum mum (the one who'd had a normal birth who wasn't struggling with breastfeeding) got more sleep than the other mums, had a baby who cried less and who was out and about with her baby looking confident from early on. The other continuum mum had had an emergency c-section and was having problems with breastfeeding so you'd expect her to be struggling more.
"Similarly one Spock family fell away. It is easy to rubbish all of the methods based on one or two of the more extreeme ideas." The continuum method may look 'extreme' to a highly socialised Westener like yourself, but as a form of babycare it's the way the vast majority of humankind have raised their babies since the dawn of time, and it's what babies would vote for themselves if they had a chance . Obviously it won't suit some adults - but there are other adults who it will suit extremely well. And unlike the 50's routine method it's based on an understanding of the physiology and the emotional needs of the newborn (ie poor temperature control so need to be kept warm/held close, fed frequently as stomach small etc).
BTW - Dr Spock never recommended that mothers feed in toilets. He was supportive of breastfeeding. It was simply that stupid woman on the programme who made this point.
"Continuum - sharing a bed with a baby (particularly alarming for me as a doctor who has tried - and failed to resucitate a baby overlain and suffocated)."
And yet the majority of SIDS deaths happen to babies in cots. Would you have had the same reaction to a baby who'd died in a cot alone in a room? Because putting a baby to sleep in its own room is also linked to higher rates of SIDS.
What people don't acknowledge in relation to this issue is the reality of early postnatal life: research shows that 60% of adults have their newborn in the bed with them at some time in the first few months, whatever their intentions are initially, and often without having made ANY adaptations to the adult bed environment, and without understanding the particular risks that the bottlefed babies of smokers and drinkers face when they co-sleep.
Blanket condemnation of bed sharing which fails to acknowledge that it can be almost unavoidable for mothers who are breastfeeding frequently during the night, or those whose child is sick, leaves parents floundering and puts babies in danger.
"All have useful elements
Spock in that it empowers mothers. Routine allows children to feel confident where they are and what is going to happen."
Sorry - where did you get this from? There's absolutely NO EVIDENCE whatsover that routine driven methods of baby care result in more confident children. In fact, you could argue that children in countries where these methods are common (ie in the West) are far more prone to depression and mental illness that children in developing countries where this style of parenting is uncommon.
"Remember natural is not always good. Natural childbirth - 10% infant mortality - 1%maternal mortality."
No - it's not so much 'natural childbirth' that results in high mortality - it's poor antenatal care and pre-existing health problems in women and fetuses that are to blame. In countries where women are well nourished and in good health during pregnancy, low-tech birth at home and in birth centers generally appears to result in lower rates of maternal and infant morbidity when compared to low risk women birthing their babies with all the technology at hand in consultant led units.
You go Yo 36 I am also very alarmed at religious ferver of the continuum concept yes it works for those who follow the concept but it doesn't work for some, but its our choice, thats what Doctor spock is all about, choice if you want to breast feed bed share thats fine, but if you want to bottle feed and have the baby beside you thats fine too, As long as your child is well cared for and happy ,stimulated does it really matter how we bring up our children as long our children aren't harmed by it. If we had our children in the 50's we would all following this method because we would be not be informed(When my mum had my sister in the late 50's she didn't know about bonding) we would not have a choice now thank god its 2007,Thank you Doc spock for giving us a informed choices on how to bring up our children. And Natural childbirth isn't always good, I had the same midwife through out my pregancy I was low risk, if i had my daughter naturally she would had been srangled at birth as the umbilcal cord was wrapped around her neck 3 times.
Remember natural is not always good. Natural childbirth - 10% infant mortality - 1%maternal mortality.
I am amazed that you say any of what you do without actually giving us real scientific evidence or giving some data without painting the whole picture i.e. re above - are you aware that in this country the c-section rate is more than double what it is internationally (25 % in the UK but only 10% globally) and are you aware of the mortality rate of baby and mum during a c-section ?
Are you aware that woman are far less likley to bf successfully in this country after a c-section (which has been carried out unnecessarily in many cases) ?
Are you also aware that FAR MORE babies die of SIDS who are formula fed and put into a separate bed/room than babies who are sleeping in their parents' bed (co-sleeping is very safe if the parents take precautions, i.e. they don't smoke, take drugs or alcohol and if the mother breastfeeds) ?
It really really annoys me that our health profs. do not give us ALL the facts.
"low-tech birth at home and in birth centers generally appears to result in lower rates of maternal and infant morbidity when compared to low risk women birthing their babies with all the technology at hand in consultant led units"
gaby is absolutely right in what she says above. I had my son in a London birth centre without any complications, although as my first baby he took his time arriving (8 hours of proper labour in water + 8 hours at home with a TENS machine !)
I did read all the facts about a natural birth before my son was born which is why I opted for a birth centre. The facts are as gaby says, fewer complications without the need for medical intervention.
I will give you a small survey, we were 8 women in my NCT ante natal group. 1 opted for a home birth, I opted for a birth centre, 2 had a natural birth in hospital, the other 4 ended up in hospitals too. Guess who had the LEAST complications both during and after labour ? You guessed right, myself and my home birth friend (who is a tiny petite woman) had no complications and minimal tearing. All the others had been lying on their backs at various points of their labour and ended up witrh varying levels of medical intervention. One had a c-section.
My home birth friend and I are also the only two to have bf for any length of time - actually over 3 years each so far. 4 gave up in the first week, 2 others continued for longer, one was advised to introduce formula at 5 months as he was labelled "failure to thrive" by a HV and GP.
Rubbish advice, the reason the poor baby was not gaining proper weight was because he was on a scheduled (Gina Ford style) feeding routine, with frequent use of dummies from birth. The father did not like having the baby in the same bed. He was failing to thrive on breastmilk because the parents chose to muck around with his biology.
Olivegreen - I had to have two emergency c-sections (after very long labours) and managed to breast feed both...it was lovely and I am glad that I did it but I stopped as it was every 2 hours and I was exhausted....also I did not want t still be breast feeding if I decide to go back to work.
I do however find your comments offensive....you are rude and opinionated (and I thought that I was bad)....and IMO breast feeding your child at the age of 3/4 is weird and I suspect that you do it for your own needs rather than for your childs.
Karen I have read several of your post today on this forum. I have come across many many individuals like you both here and on other forums. Oddly enough, you ALL sound the same. If you don't like what I say, TOUGH. You don't have to read it and then you won't have to comment on it in such an offensive way.
Oh yes, women who bf their children for this long, get on their knees and BEG the child to bf... : ) "Please, please, please, darling X can you bf for as long as MUMMY wants, PLEASE".
Another fact for you, the GLOBAL average age for bf in the world is.....hang on......FOUR YEARS. So clearly millions of us are begging our children not to give up bf : )
If you knew anything at all about bf which you obviously don't you would realise that (unlike formula milk out of a bottle) it is IMPOSSIBLE to force feed a bf child.
I do not think that I have ever been offensive to you.....you are the one who does not like it when someone does not agree with your opinion...and TOUGH if you do not like it when I respond but that is what a forum is all about...expressing one's opinions....I think it is called 'freedom of speech'
Oddly enough I have seem your sort as well - on Little Britain! "Bitty"
Almost can't be bothered to post as I feel certain there will be replies on the lines of "I had a natural birth and it was perfectly OK", but I do think we have forgotten just how dangerous childbirth is without access to all that modern medicine has to offer.
Since there have been some anecdotes, I'll add one. A mother planned her home delivery complete with birthing pool. All went well until after the delivery when she haemmorhaged. Fortunately she was very near the hospital which fortunately had an A&E. Nearly bled to death. Twice. No way would ante-natal care have predicted this.
Also remember all the women in poor countries who have fistulas because of obstructed labour, who suffer agonising labours which may go on for days and end with the delivery of a dead baby and incontinence for the mother which results in becoming a social outcast unless and until surgery to repair the damage can be done.
Olivegreen - I have breast fed two children, as mentioned so I think I know what it is like....(doh) However...how many children of four need to be breast fed for the purposes of nutrition? Does your child come and let you know that he wants a feed?? How often does he do this? What happens when he goes to school? Will you be there at the playground to give him his 'play piece'Or is it just a 'bonding thing'...am interested to know (honestly)
Religious ferver - I am afraid that some of the comments made seem to confirm my initial thoughts.
Of course an uncomplicated home birth is the best for Mum and Baby and would be favoured by most if we could be certain of the outcome. Unfortunately "Normal Delivery" is a post natal diagnosis. Home delivery has a risk that if things fail to go as planned the services of a hospital could be needed. No wonder home deliverys are so successful - those who initially wish to have a home birth but then have problems usually choose to leave home to go to hospital.
The poor lady who struggled after her C section had probably done everything in her power to prepare for the wonderful home birth we all aspire to. I would imagine that she had attended all the NCT antinatal classes. However, having come through a 30 hour labour with a child in distress the only option she had that would not have lead to a stillbirth was to go to hospital. Her little boy benefitted from SCBU - a highly technological area which no mother would turn down for their baby if they needed it.
She had a C section, and struggled to breast feed which n of 1 proves that hospitals cut people up and stop them breast feeding!
What people want is a normal delivery at home. Not natural childbirth which on BUB could have been stillbirth in a Birthing pool after 48 hours of labour.
Not everyone gets Normal Delivery at home - please don't try to make us feel guilty for not being brave enough to try!
Marina, I wasn't just giving out anecdotes for the heck of it. My anecdotes are backed up by evidence on medicalised hospital births in the UK.
Yes, many women worldwide have complications during and after a natural birth. My point, addressed to the original poster who is a doctor, was that if you are going to say that natural births can lead to death, then as a medical expert it is your duty to also point out the risk factors and mortality rate associated with c-sections and other medicalised births.
Originally posted by karen999: Olivegreen - I had to have two emergency c-sections (after very long labours) and managed to breast feed both...it was lovely and I am glad that I did it but I stopped as it was every 2 hours and I was exhausted....also I did not want t still be breast feeding if I decide to go back to work.....and IMO breast feeding your child at the age of 3/4 is weird and I suspect that you do it for your own needs rather than for your childs.
Breastfed babies do feed this often, its normal and natural. If you had slept with them in your bed you would have been able to sleep whilst you were feeding and not been exhausted. I have bf both my girls exclusively AND returned to work. I expressed during breaks and also fed them myself in my lunch hour. Working and breastfeeding can and do go together, if you truely value your own and your childs health.
I am still nursing my four year old, "in tandem" with her 16 month old sister. I do it because she wants to, not because I want her to. You cannot force a child to breastfeed, it's not like poking a rigid bottle teat into thier mouth or leaving them to cry until they "learn to sleep". If you allow a child to self wean they stop when they are ready, not when it is convenient to you.
Following a continum or attached style of parenting is all about allowing your child to set the pace, meeting thier needs as and when they arise. Going with the flow. Routine based parenting is about moulding a baby/child into a compliant automatom that interferes with your life as little as possible. Being in control.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Nestle boycotting,nappy washing, co-sleeping, baby wearing, home birthing, tandem nursing Momma
Routines are for dancers, shedules are for trains
Attachment Parenting; the radical notion that babies and children are people too!!
Normal delivery is giving birth - mother with or without midwife without problems. This occurs at home and in hospitals every minute of every day around the world. It is easier to predict that some people will have normal delivery if for example they have had a normal delivery before.
Medicalised births are sometimes needed for the safety of mother and baby. Commonly nowadays they are chosen by women after consultation with the medical profession when they are not needed.
Normal delivery at home - great!!!
1st time baby in a shack in the outback miles from help = Natural delivery = risky.
Thank goodness we live in a tolerant society which allows us to choose how we bring up our children. Luckily the majority of us are self confident and think that we have done things the best way at least for our child and family. I choose not to share my bed with my child, you may choose the opposite. I choose to vaccinate you may choose not to. Some people say organic is best, I like organic but don’t mind if I can’t get it. Who knows for certain how the risks stack up? Does home birth, bed sharing, carrying, not vaccinating, playing with knives, and eating organic + breast feeding till age four. Equate to hospital birth, separate room, push chairing, vaccinating, fire guarding, Tesco food and bottle feeding. Even if we did know the lowest risk recipe should we all follow it?
I have bf both my girls exclusively AND returned to work. I expressed during breaks and also fed them myself in my lunch hour. Working and breastfeeding can and do go together, if you truely value your own and your childs health.
You are lucky that you coud do that... I will not be able to express milk or feed my baby when I return to work as I have 3 x fifteen minute breaks in a twelve hour shift. Probably most people are not in your fortunate position and have to wean their babies. Just because something worked for you do not think that it is easy for everyone else.
36yo and Karen - you are both quite excellent at really rather offenesive stereotyping.
My life is anything but what you describe, not everyone who follows the Continuum Concept (which I had never even heard of until 4 weeks ago when I saw the first episode) or Attachment Parenting is a lentil eating hippie (although there are many in my son's school and I think they are lovely people who adore their children) as I am sure you realise not everyone who follows CV or Gina Ford is an evil witch ?
I think people who get this defensive and bury their heads so very much further into the sa
