I am a mum of 3 and do not agree with the 1950s routine either. But i do feel that everyone is getting too worked up. The parents on the show can back out at any time they do not HAVE to follow this ladies views. And the people that pay Claire Verity all the money to help them after they have had babies are still going to continue to do so after this programme as that is the sort of people they are. It would be lovely if all parents wanted to spend all their time loving and playing with their children but this is not the case we do not live in an ideal world. By all means have your opinions on the lady and her viewsbut just calm down and reassure yourself that she is not going to come to your house and do the same with your little ones is she? She only goes where she is paid and if people are willing to pay her £1000's of pounds after they have seen the pay she behaves then let them waste their money, You cant control how other people want to raise their children

what i was trying to say is if you dont like it then dont watch it

oh yeah and she may not be coming to our houses to do this to our babies, but what does that matter??? Babies are babies wether they be yours or mine, we should all take a collective responsibility to look after and educate all our families in britain and around the world.

So you don't care about any babies as long as they aren't yours, eh?
Nice.

quote:

Originally posted by lulu984:
By all means have your opinions on the lady and her viewsbut just calm down and reassure yourself that she is not going to come to your house and do the same with your little ones is she?

No, she most certainly is not! But, whilst my children are safe, there will be other parents or parents to be who will be watching this and thinking that it is ok to do what she is doing. The influence of the media is huge, and for Channel 4 to have shown this, we need to make enough noise about this to make it clear to everyone, be they parents or not, that this is unacceptable and down right wrong, so that it is practiced in as few families as possible.

My partner always tells me to relax and not worry about how other people are raising thier children and be happy that ours are cared for and nurtured, but even he is incensed by this programme.

to lulu -

you said if you don't like it don't watch, i turned over to what i thought would be an informative program with hints and tips about bringing up a baby and in places i found it helpful/insiteful but did not realise i was going to be watching a so called 'professional' leaving a baby to cry in the garden because she did not 'want it to get the better of her', and neglect it from bonding with its parents in the most important first few days of its life.

and so just because it isnt going to happen in our houses makes it right does it? so any sort of child abuse/neglect should be swept under the carpet because its not happening in our house?

your right that you cant tell people how to bring up their children but if you see something like the way claire verity was showing people how to 'raise' their babies then i think i can say this for many other people on here that this is why we are commenting because we feel it is wrong. if enough people stand up and shout about it then something might be done. it mighjt not but at least we know we have tried to stop something happening which is blatently wrong.

we know that this contry has many teenage mums who could have watched that program and believe that the way she was doing it was right, which could lead to serious problems. (no offence to teen mums this is an example)

considering u have 3 children i am shocked at your view of - its not happening to us so ignore it

No i wasnt saying ignore it i was trying to say that the kind of people that pay this woman thousnads of pounds know what technique she is using and the parents on the show have their own minds too, im sorry but they CAN say no to her I know that I would.

emiky is right regarding to teenage mums, I was pregnant with my son at 19 and I didn't have a clue when it came to raising him, I decided not to read any books on childcare as they were all very different but most seemed to agree that controlled crying was a good method to use. I'm fortunately not the kind of person that listens to anyone without a good solid fact behind the methods, and I couldn't see a fact based childcare book in any of my local bookstores.
Then when he was born I remember at the hospital bf him and changing him but everytime I put him down he cried and I couldn't understand why, so I asked a midwife what I was doing wrong and she said 'he probably just wants you to hold him and love him, that's not so wrong right?'. All of a sudden it hit me like a ton of bricks, like my maternal instinct kicked in and I thought, my goodness, he needs love! of course!
What I find most shocking looking back is that society had nothing to say about love as I was growing up, and if it did I completely missed it! Babies where like a robot who you did certain things to to stop them crying, and if they carried on crying, they were attention seeking and that was negative and should be corrected!
When he was about 3weeks old I remember reading an artical in a newspaper about a new book coming out called The Science Of Parenting and how co-sleeping should be done until the age of at least five. This sounded completely different to all the advice I had been given and read about and it was a book based on facts!
So I remember pre-ordering it and when it came I read it over and over thinking this all makes perfect natural sense!
I love that book so much because without it I doubt I would have continued to bf until he wants to stop and co-slept as my health visitor advised against it and I wouldn't have had a clue when it came to discipline as he gets older as my mum used to smack me all the time and I hated it and I think thats one of the many reasons I hold resentment towards her, so I didn't know what to do but this book set me up for life I think!!!
I'm so sorry I didn't realise I had typed so much! But I think I was trying to say that tenagers in this society who fall pregnant can be easily influenced and the more we educate people about the importance of love and understanding and things like the importance of bf, co-sleeping etc, the better cared for innocent babies will be as they enter this world.

Hiya i have been thinking about my original post and i have to agree that i was being selfish. I hadnt thought about the influence this would have on teenagers and young mums in general. I was 20 when i had my first daughter and i personally would never have left her to cry and still now with my third i do not leave him too either. I do however think that it is a programme about different methods and claire verity is following the 1950s method, i cannot comment on this as i was not around back then. She obviouslly behaves this way as she does not have children as any mother would not. I also agree with another post that channel four should follow these families to see the long term affect on babies, as this would really proove the effects of the different methods. Personally I think so far the only one i can see as close to my methods is the dr spock one. I am interested by the last method has anybody tried this? Surely a baby who has been carried by you all the time must be hard work when they reach the age where they have to sleep in their own bed etc?

I have to confess to not caring at all how people treated their babies/children until my son was born. All of sudden I realised that the reason I avoided going to my sister's house was that she always smacked and shouted at her little boy and I just couldn't take it.

I agree with Continuum. The media have responsibilty for what they say and show. It is no secret that the media can make or break lives, that includes little babies.

In a moral society we ALL have responsibility for each other. Unless you prefer to live in a cave and isolate yourself from the world (god, I have wanted to many times !) we have to deal with all the shit that there is out there.

I have just read my local paper about a middle aged man who has been seriously injured after a big group of lads (15 - 20 of them) just decided to punch him and kick him in the middle of the street. The attack was unprovoked, he was in the wrong place at the wrong time.

I am petrified of the day I have to allow my son out of the house to go out with his friends. We are living in an increasingly anti-social Britain, and if the UN report is correct we have the UNHAPPIEST teenagers in Europe. Many of the children interviewed for the report talked about being bullied at school and unhappy with relationships with their parents.

I am a firm believer that anti-social behaviour starts in the home. The best people to stop it are not the schools, the police or social services, but loving, caring, responsible parents.

I can't see a very harsh method of parenting producing anything other than very unhappy children who will grow up into very unhappy, possibly dysfunctional teenagers.

You only have to travel to the Mediterranean for example to see how differently children are treated there. They are always seen in public (many of us Brits. seem to think that children should be hidden away and looked after by nannies after 6 pm, so that the parents can go out and dine with other adults, something I am totally opposed to). I see children constantly hugged and kissed by total strangers when I go abroad, not much of it goes on here.

I remember with much sadness something that happened to me in the summer. I was out in the town centre in one of the playgrounds, my son playing with the other children there while I was chatting away to a woman I had just met. Suddenly a baby came crawling towards me, I think he was just under a year old, still crawling and cruising. He put his hands on my knees (I was sitting on the grass) and pushed himself up. I thought, aaaahhh, how cute and started to talk to him. I looked over my shoulder to see whose baby it was , there was a man sitting right behind me and said it was his grandson. He came up and took the baby away.

It happened a second time, the baby came up, pushed himself on to my knees, at which stage I just picked him up and sat him on my knee, I started talking to the baby and he was smiling back at me, so the grandfather rushes towards me, takes the baby away without saying a word, and then walks off with the baby looking annoyed that I had dared pick the baby up.

I was really embarraseed actually beacuse I thought ok what the hell is wrong with me and why did he rush off to take the baby away, was he worried about my germs, was he worried I would take the baby away with me, what excatly was his problem, the playground was full people watching us and my only sin was to be friendly to the child !

I despair ! I don't think we live in a child-friendly country, I wish it would change. One thing I have NEVER stopped my 3 year old doing is to say don't talk to strangers on the street. He is very trusting of adults and more interested to chat to them than he is with other children, probably because he is an only child and used to being around adults. I know that one day I will have to stop him being too friendly for his own safety, but not now. I love watching how sociable and chatty he is.

i think the 70's style seems very extreme too but in a less neglectful and vile way as the 50's!! i think that having your baby there strapped to you all the time is a bit extreme - not cos i think a baby should be left so i can go clubbing but i think they need to go in a pram so they can look up at your face as you walk along, knowing that you are close but not having to be held all the time. and lay on the floor under a gym and experience different things.

I vowed i would never put my baby in bed with me but have on a few occassions at 5am when i need just 2 more hours of sleep to be able to function after being up many times in the night
(call me selfish but a mum is no good to a baby half asleep!!)

i just think this theory sets you up to have realy clingy children .. i mean if you do it strictly .. not if you sometimes have your baby in the bed and hold them alot .. i mean by the book.

i'm open to all sorts of techniques.. just not the 50's style.. although routine is a good idea.. sod it if you dont have one cos at the end of the day if you use your instincts and releax they usually get into one themselves... well maybe!

yeah im all for the continuum method. I don't think it makes clingy children, if a child is as secure and happy as possible,because all the babys' needs are met straight away, the child will have no reason to cling because he isn't worried about mummy leaving etc. It makes sense to me, and my son is living proof.
I also agree that it is a very sad state of affairs that we no longer live in a community of trusting people and I wish I had a loving extended family to help. It would be wonderfull! Aparently Sweden is very good with looking out for everyones children, not a grunt when a child has a wobbly in a supermarket, far different to Britain!
I think its great that your son olivegreen is so curious and trusting of people too, If only we were all like that!

Goodness I hate to disagree with you again emiky cause I think we agree on so much reading some other posts of yours along the way. But nah the 70s method doesn't make clingy kids, my daughter is very confident and trusts people and loves making new friends although she was a little shy when very young. I am sure this was just her personality though, a little more cautious. My son on the other hand was probably held even more than my first because I had more confidence in the method. He was off and racing as soon as he could diving in with the big kids. He does prefer me to hold him than his Dad (he is happy with Dad if I am not around), but I know he'll grow out of that to and think it is perfectly ok as I am the parent most often around. My daughter on the other hand is a right little Daddy's girl now at age 5.
I suppose it depends what you think clingy is, he doesn't go to sleep alone but I am ok with that. He does rush off and play with others not even looking back at me and he can keep himself amused for ages at home. It really depends on the family needs like going back to work although I do know continuum concept parents who have gone back to work and found that the time they spend with babies at night and the closness (physically) makes going back easier. Just sticking up for the 70s I think it is so great!

thats ok!!! if it works for you then great and i guess with the breas tfeeding thing it is easier to have them in bed with you.

thinking about it im a bit 70's and well as 60's as i spend many hours of the day with phoebe on my lap cuddling etc and love it when she is in bed with us cos she cuddles up, but i wouldnt carry her in a sling everywhere as i think they need their space to. think clingy was the wrong word! i stand corrected x

oh bugger .. just read in another topic that you use a sling lol ... i enjoy pushing a pram! also my boobs are too big for a sling thing ...

Not bothered emiky, I used a sling cause it is practical for me. I live in a city and use public transport a lot. I also use a pushchair, at about 13 mo I said to ds do you want sling or pushchair he went for the chair that day as it was a bit of a novelty. We go back and forth as it suits us.
Also I didn't carry him round all day at home mostly cause I didn't walk around that much (I am a lazy bugger). Just brought him to where ever I was or let him sleep on my lap.
Being in a sling really was just what he wanted as a baby and at 6 mo he was crawling and he just followed me or his sister around as it suited him. Or went off to explore I really don't think newborns need space neither of mine wanted it and I don't really know why they would, developmentally I believe they need time to slowly separate from Mum.

"i just think this theory sets you up to have realy clingy children .. i mean if you do it strictly .. not if you sometimes have your baby in the bed and hold them alot .. i mean by the book."

I agree that you don't have to carry baby in a sling for 6 months or co-sleep or use cloth nappies or grow organic lentils to have a happy baby/child ! It is a matter of prioroties though.

You don't need to do anything EXACTLY by the book (whatever the book is). I have been following my instinct, but have come across Attachment Parenting books which I have read and realised that they appealed to me. It is impossible to follow everything by the book.

The point is to have our priorities right. Is it more important to be the main carer for your child for at least the first most crucial 3 to 5 year of his life, or do you need "your life back" asap after he is born ?

I remember a high flying woman when I used to work in the City coming back to work full-time exactly three days after her second child was born. I wonder why people like this have children ? It seems a nonsense to have baby that is going to have a nanny as his main carer for the first few years of his life and then be sent to boarding school (because you have enough money to do that sort of thing, ok but is it good for he child ?) What excatly is the point of this ?

Another couple I knew, the man earned a bucket in the City, employed a nanny while his wife was still pregnant. They decided very early on that they wouldn't bf because it involved too much work (?) and that the nanny would have to wake up to bottle feed the baby so they could get their 8 hours sleep !

I have been at home with my son for the past 3 years, gave up the most money I had ever earned in my life working in the City. There are times when I wish I could go off shopping or on a short holiday on my own, but what I keep remembering is that the last 3 years have gone by in a flash.

I remember reading Elizabeth Pantley's excellent book on sleep when I was really really sleep deprived and my son was still waking very two hours for a breastfeed. She said, it all goes by very very quickly, enjoy your baby while you can because the baby time is all over very quickly ! How right she was. My son was sleeping through at 10 months old without any sort of intervention from me. He was crawling, he got tired, he slept ! He felt he didn't need a bf in the middle of the night any more, so I allowed him to tell me what he wanted !

Every birthday comes along and I can't believe that my beautiful brown eyed boy is another year older and going to school next September

My little boy is my life ; )

your right there Olivegreen time goes very very quickly one minute just given birth next your waving your child off to secondary school I don't know where the time goes. Thats why Claire Varity is robbing precious time and memories from those parents . When my oldest was first born we used to sneak off back to bed when my my husband went work, such guilty pleasures.(Clare would not approve)
You are right it is important that you are the main carer in your childs life. The horror stories I could tell you when I worked in a day nursery in the city. We had 17 week old baby the parents dropped him off at 8 and a nanny used to often pick the child up at 6 so they could go out and work late, or the parents who used to dose their children up with capol when they were ill and the nursey couldn't get hold off the parents because they knew they would have to at home with their children. I only work part-time as my children need me at home.

In Claire Verity's own website, it says "I have observed babies sleeping and feeding patterns for many years and have devised a routine which works exeptionally well."
Therefore if she is following the 1950's work of Truby King it may not be the method that she does herself. I am NOT defending her AT ALL as I spend most of the time when she is on screen crying or screaming at her.
I am a manager of a Montessori nursery and I am Montessori trained (after 11 years in mainstream nurseries following a NNEB) I personally do not always agree with everything Dr Montessori said, but happily take the bits I agree with (with my Montessori collegues) and Early Years guidance within my nursery. Therefore ALL the methods should be looked at with value.
I agree with fresh air, slings for the first few weeks, cuddles, playtime and a small amount of non contact time (you still need to go to the loo!)
I DO NOT agree with leaving a newborn for hours crying, no eye contact, 10 minute cuddles... This is how my mum was brought up. She has low self esteem, hated her parents, and rebelled. I was brought up with love and affection - (that it what I promte in my nursery.) I have had parents at nursery asking me what I think of the programme. I say "I believe in elements of Dr Spock and Continuum but apart from fresh air I totally disagee with 1950's method."

quote:

Originally posted by emiky:
i think the 70's style seems very extreme too but in a less neglectful and vile way as the 50's!! i think that having your baby there strapped to you all the time is a bit extreme - not cos i think a baby should be left so i can go clubbing but i think they need to go in a pram so they can look up at your face as you walk along, knowing that you are close but not having to be held all the time.

Actually it's quite the opposite, it makes them less clingy as they learn to trust you more.
Touch and being held helps release chemicals that make you both feel good, loved and secure. I believe it helps develop a healthy autonomic nervous system (I can dig out the big words later if you want). Then baby can concentrate on observing and learning about the world and people, rather than feeling insecure.
They have this innate throwback from early times, that not being in arms can be stressful (they can be quiet and stressed so not always obvious to us) for them because there could be a predator nearby. Obviously we know there isn't but babies are born feeling that way, it's an act of self preservation. To call us when they feel alone and unsafe, to go unanswered causes unecessary distress.
I must add too you don't carry babies when they don't wish to, it's not about using slings against their will. If they want to get down and crawl or walk about then they will. But so far in my experience in the first 2 years or so most children will want a cuddle at awkward times for you (like in the middle of cooking dinner or running late for school). That's when the sling is invaluable. I also have a buggy, and give my 17 month old the choice of how he gets about. He prefers the slings! It's so nice to walk along with him on my hip or back, pointing our planes, cats and trees and babbling on together.
http://www.thebabywearer.com/index.php?page=bwbenefits
I never had slings with my eldest, didn't half get arm ache and needed physio from being all wonky from carrying on my hip! You don't get that with slings as the weight is evenly distributed and for me is easier than pushing a buggy. So mum gets many benefits too.
http://www.hno.harvard.edu/gazette/1998/04.09/ChildrenNeedTou.html