I only just saw Continua Mom's reply to my suggestions and opinions.

CM I understand you feel very strongly about your own way of raising your children and that is all very good and well, but the Continua system does not work for everyone.

Nobodies breasts can produce milk instantly. Would you rather wait one hour and give your baby 1oz of milk or wait four hours and produce 4oz of milk? If you wait one hour you'll be feeding again in an hour because baby will be hungry, if your wait four hours you'll be feeding again in four hours because baby will feel fuller for longer. It's not a matter of opinion just logic and science.

Your breasts do NOT magically re-fill themselves automatically, your body needs time to MAKE milk.

I'm not saying you should leave your child crying, if it is genuinly hungry then feed it, but it is increasingly common for mothers to be told that feeding on demand is the ONLY way to do it and as a consequence I have met many mothers who are exhausted and feeding every hour, some poor women I meet feed every 15 minutes or so - or basically whenever baby cries and they are exhausted mentally and physically and THIS is why so many mothers give up breast feeding.

I think CM, that you should stop trying to push the Continua system on everyone, if it works for you then I'm glad, but please don't go around pretending that your way is the ONLY way because it's not.

Continua babies tend to grow up to be demanding and spoilt because their parents don't realise that by giving your child exactly what it wants when it wants after the age of 12 months means that the child expects that to happen all it's life because thats all it's ever known.

I know because I WAS one of those children, fed on demand never had to wait for anything and I've found it extremely hard to deal with the fact that life just DOESNT meet every want or need instantaniously, sometimes you have to wait.

Patience is a virtue and it's something that everyone has to learn.

Tolerance is also a virtue something that some people here could do with.

I'd also like to point out that however you feed your baby the MOST important thing is to ensure your baby empties each breast ensuring they get to the fat rich milk which is only released towards the end of a feed.

If you're feeding baby every hour your body CANNOT make this fat rich milk and even if it can the chances of your baby sucking for long enough to reach it are slim.

A hungry baby will suck for longer ensuring they DO get the fat rich milk which is essential for healthy growth and ensuring that they stay fuller for longer.

If you are constantly 'topping up' then baby is only getting a snack, not a full meal, and is only getting the pre-milk not the nutrient rich fatty milk.

If baby doesn't empty the breast, the breast will not make as much milk next time because the body assumes it is making too MUCH milk and this can cause problems with supply and demand.

Baby does not know all this, so if baby is encouraged to go a little longer each time it's fed until you reach a good 3-4 hours inbetween each feed then you will be doing the absolute best for your child and also establishing an eating routine which is easier to maintain and easier to manage.

Parenting HAS to take into consideration the well being of the mother as WELL as the child, because the child NEEDS a healthy happy mum and a mother with a constantly demanding baby will NOT be very happy.

I don't disagree with some aspects of Continua, I used a baby carrier and carried my baby with me most of the day, but I didn't feed on demand I regulated feeding making very small changes on a daily basis until I was happy with the feeding routine and my baby was very contented.

Please don't tell me that Continua is the ONLY way of doing things, because my daughter is proof positive that feeding to a flexible schedule DOES work.

She is a happy and confident three year old, compare that to a lot of demand fed babies and you will find that they are bossy, temperamental and clingy, lacking the confidence to leave their parents and play with their peers. Obviously not ALL children who are scheduled are confident and not ALL children who are demand fed are clingy - you can compensate in other ways if you are smart enough, but for those people who don't realise the problems that can be cause by BOTH systems often don't compensate.

BOTH systems can be taken to the extreme and BOTH can be carried out inapproriately.

This is some good advice, nice to know that breastfeeding can be done in different ways other than on demand. It does sound plausable that both can work, and I think it depends on lifestyle. Myself having two children doing this would have made things a lot easier.

Sillycat,

Where/who did you do your breastfeeding training with? I have been studying breastfeeding and human lactation for nearly 5 years and I can tell you that your theories on how milk is made etc are total RUBBISH.

As for Continuum'd babies turning into spoilt children, again, this is rubbish. Attachment Parenting does NOT mean giving your child what they want, every time, as soon as they want it. That is called Spoiling. My children DO NOT get every thing they want, they have learnt that sometimes they have to wait, and sometimes they don't get at all. My eldest is at school, a normal, mainstream school, having been in a normal mainstream nursery since she was six months old (when I went to back to work). She knows how the world works, she is not spoilt and my youngest is learning the same lessons that her elder sister learnt, having also started at nursery at the age of six months when I returned to work.

The really big difference between you and I is that I do my research and talk about things I actually know about where as you just spout nonsense and opinion based on your own ideas and nothing else. Do some reading, educate yourself.

Bottom line, breastfeeding on demand does not produce fussy spoilt snacking babies, it makes for a plentiful supply of milk and spacing feeds out actually reduces your milk supply. FACT. Look it up!!

Demand fed babies do not continue to feed every hour, most feed like this for the first few weeks and then the feeds naturally space out as the baby becomes more efficient at feeding. Both of mine have naturally fallen into a 3-4 hour feeding pattern, without me having to "encourage" them to wait. I can point you to lots of other "demand feeding" mums who will say the same, along with every breastfeeding support and education organisation.

Waiting until your baby is very hungry has several negative effects. A crying baby may not latch very well, this can lead to sore nipples and inefficient feeding. A hungry baby that has been crying for a feed will be tired, as such they will not feed for long before they fall asleep, and then you have to wake them up to "finish" the feed. MAking a baby wait and take a bigger feed than it would naturally take will stretch it's stomach, this kind of feeding over-rides the babies ability to control appettite, which can lead to over-eating in later life, a contributing factor in obesity.

We should encourage people to bottle feed as if they were breastfeeding, ie; small frequent feeds when the baby asks for them, not encourage breastfeeding mothers to nurse their babies as if they were bottle feeding with artificial baby milk, in large feeds at long intervals.

quote:

Originally posted by Borisnruby:
Hi there

I was a big fan of "Secrets of the Baby Whisperer" by Tracey Hogg. .........From 6 weeks old she suggests a way of helping your child to sleep 'through the night' (although emphasises that this really only means a 5/6 hour stretch and that sleeping through the night is something we want our children to do, and therefore have to train them to do it). Her idea is to 'tank them up' (her words) by feeding babies at 2 hourly intervals before bedtime, then giving them a dream feed somewhere between 10 and 11pm - no later than 11 though. The dream feed just involves picking up your baby and feeding them without disturbing them - they have a relaxed feed without waking. Sounds impossible, but it really does work!!!

Babies naturally cluster feed in the evening, the one thing that Tracey Hogg does which makes sense is she works along the same lines as babies natural rythyms, which is why her "routines" do seem to work easier than much stricter type ones. Breastfed babies can take "dream feeds" too, I did it with both of mine, it means you know they won't wake up for a feed 20 minutes after you've gone to sleep!! By not trying to regulate feeds/sleeps until after 6 weeks she allows you to feed on demand and build up your milk supply before easing into a more structured way of doing things. Most babies are starting fall into a "routine" by themselves anyway, so all you are doing is kinda nudging them into a schedule rather than forcing them into one like the GF style "from birth" books do.

There is one minor glitch with Tracey Hoggs EASY routine, most babies fall asleep after a feed, so really it should be Eat, Sleep, You(whilst they are asleep) Activity. But then, ESYA doesn't sound as good as EASY does it!!

Oh no, not again.

Breastfeeding on demand and the continuum method are not the same thing.
Sillicat and Continuum Momma are coming at this from different angles, but actually what they are saying is not entirely incompatible:

When ESTABLISHING breastfeeding (ie first few weeks), you DO need to feed on demand, to get baby and breasts used to the process.
AFTER breastfeeding is fully established feeds are likely to naturally get GRADUALLY further apart, into a 3-4 hour routine. This may be mother-led if it doesn't seem the baby is leading the process.

CM is NOT saying you should still be feeding an older baby every 15 mins, as you might a newborn. Sillicat is NOT saying you should feed a newborn on a strict 4 hourly routine.

Having said that, as I understand it from my breast feeding peer support training, your breasts do NOT need time to replenish (or no longer than it takes to feed from the other side). The sucking stimulates milk production, not the amount of time. Leaving it four hours instead of one will not produce 4 times as much milk (although it might feel that way if you get engorged!)
Basically, your breasts are much smarter than all the theories. If you are consistent, and make any changes in feeding patterns gradually, they will get it right for your baby. You do not feed until your breasts are empty, you feed until your baby is full! This might be half a breast full, both breasts, or even 3 breastfuls (ie one breast twice). The baby WILL get the hindmilk, because your breasts will 'learn' how much to make.

This is all to confusing, but as I had no trainig or advice/support when it came to b/f I gave up. If I knew all the facts then maybe I would have been successful in feeding my children for longer than just a few weeks.

Unfortunatly this thread has gone off the subject, and again with tge intervention from someone it has turned into a slanging match about how to breastfeed our children properly.

At the end of the day there is no 'proper' or 'real' way to b/f a baby.
Baby cries, if mum feels baby may be hungry then baby is fed. Otherwise something else like a clean nappy or different type of stimulation, if babu is still not settled, then I am sure a b/f is given.
I am no expert and don't really have much experience with b/f, but as my close friend b/f her son, I am well aware that he was a happy a contented baby. He fed very regular at first, then found his own pattern, which did seem to change with growth spurts and illness, as does any humans beings appetite, weather they survive of fresh fruit and salad, or burger and chips.

The problem here again is that us mums are having simple points being turned from molehills into mountains.

Like Nickcky says breastfeed ing and the contunuum way of life are two seperate things. And I don't think that sillycat is suggesting that a newborn/young baby should be left screaming or crying waiting to be fed.

Yes bottle fed babies are easily swayed into lasting longer because the milk is thicker, and more difficult to digest, therefore making baby feel fuller for longer. A b/f baby has nice smooth, easily digested milk, thereore their tummy empties faster, therefore, they need to be fed that bit sooner.

I have no shame in saying my babies are bottle fed, and I know full well that breastmilk would be 1000 times better for them.

Unfortunatly it is confrontations with advice and support like what is being witnessed here that made it too difficult for me.
And I speak from an emotional and psychological side, more than from a phisical side.

I knew my son wouldn't come to any great harm is I continued to b/f him (although he did!). I just found that him screaming, and me being alone and not knowing what to do was to unbarable to cope with.

All the bad memories from my first attemt at b/f my son all came flooding back when my daughter arrived. And I know hand on heart that my daughter and myself would have done so much better at b/f second time around. I just needed that supposrt and advice from other people telling me that everything would be ok.

But when people told me that the first time around, and they were wrong, I couldn't cope with all the trauma again.

That is my rant over.

I am so glad that people can be so passionate at b/f. And hope that with help, I WILL do it one day.

Continuum Mom - when you talk about feeding your talking about how you personally understand it, like I said before you obviously know what your doing and have really thought about it. Sadly the majority of new mums do not think as deeply about feeding and often take what they are told at face value.

When a midwife tells a new mum she should feed on demand the mum takes it literally. To her this means that everytime the baby cries you feed it, if it doesn't cry for a feed you don't feed it. The problem with this is that many babies are very sleepy for the first few weeks and if a breastfeeding mother doesn't put baby to the breast at regular intervals then when baby comes into it's more active phase at a few weeks old mums suddenly realise they don't have enough milk. I woke my baby up every three hours to feed for the first four weeks apart from a longer period during the night and therefore I regulated when baby was to feed, if I hadn't she probably would have fed very little in those early weeks and my milk supply wouldn't have been enough to cope later.

I think it's the generalisation of the words 'feeding on demand' that I have a problem with rather than the actual concept. People have to understand that baby doesn't always know what it wants, doesn't always cry when it's hungry or may cry for other reasons. We tend to assume that being a mother and feeding are natural things that don't need to be taught, and it is for some but the truth is that the majority of mothers and babies need to be trained to feed properly.

Your own babies may not have fed every hour, but some mothers give up feeding very quickly because either baby doesn't feed regularly and they loose their milk supply or baby is continually sucking at the breast, even when it is empty and mothers get very sore nipples very quickly no matter how well latched on they are. The other thing with demand led feeding is that mothers who are feeding excessively often feel exhausted and resort to the bottle just to get a rest and many eventually give up breast feeding altogether.

Another common problem with demand feeding is that baby can end up feeding more in the night, I know some babies who take 70% of their feeds at night and sleep all day, in truth this problem is very easily solved simply by mum taking control and waking up baby during the day to feed, baby will then be less hungry and more tired at night.

The truth is that 67% of breastfeeding mothers have ceased breastfeeding by the time baby is one month old. Thats an awful lot of mothers who know that breast is best but find it too difficult, the sad truth is that it doesn't have to be a chore.

The other main thing I will say about regulated feeding is that it allows the mother some control and a lot more rest. It is important when breastfeeding that mum is relaxed and happy as stress can cause problems with the let down of the milk in the breast.

The majority of problems with new mother and their babies stem from sleep problems. Mum needs rest and support at the begining to recover from the ordeal her body has been through yet most mothers will tell you that getting rest is almost impossible, this is because mothers are led to believe that it is perfectly normal to follow babies lead, when if they were told that they can take control or modify babies routine to make things a little easier you give them the permission they need to have some control over their lives and to decide what time is best for feeding, napping, playing, etc.

I do not like your criticism of my views on breast feeding but I accept that you are entitled to voice your opinion, however it is vital that the breasts are emptied at every feed to ensure baby gets the nutrient rich, fatty milk and it does help your breast to keep up with supply. You can pooh-pooh these ideas as much as you like, but if you do your research you will find that I am correct.

Never have I said that you should leave your baby to cry if it is hungry, neither have I said that babies should not be fed for long periods of time. A newborn baby needs between 8-12 feeds a day, but if you can fit the majority of them in between 7am and 11pm then you should only have two feeds to do at night. This soon changes to one feed and by the time most babies are three months old they are more than capable of sleeping from 11pm to 7am without a feed. The reason the majority do not is because they are not getting enough milk during the day, with a little adjustment from mum they can sleep through and both baby and mum will be happy and content.

My daughter is nearly four now, she slept through the night from the age of three months and only took one feed at night prior to that, she slept in a moses basket next to me until she was six months old but went for naps in her nursery/big cot during the day. She was more than happy to move into her big cot at six months and has never had sleep problems of any kind. Compare that to most demand fed babies and you'll see a huge difference.

Admitedly there are babies who seem to fall into their own natural routine, but if you look a little deeper you will find that these routines have been influenced by either the family routine (getting other kids to school, etc.) or that the mother has influenced it slightly, sometimes without even realising it.

Even parents in third world countries influence their babies sleeping and eating paterns, most can even anticipate when their babies need wee and poo, not by some form of mind reading but because they know their babies routine, a routine that is influenced by the families needs. Lets face it if you have to walk a mile each way to get water baby just has to wait for his feed, because getting water is an absolute necessity.

I take objection to the fact that you appear to believe it is absolutely okay for you to criticise, judge and comment on everyone else's version of parenting whilst objecting furiously to anyone else's disagreement or criticism of your own choosen method.

I am not the first one who has objected to your heavy handed approach towards other mothers and you talk about the continuum system as though anything less is a sin to your baby. You have to be very careful, there are some mothers out their who are not as confident or assertive as yourself who may listen to you and feel bad about what they are doing for their children. Where as what we should be doing is supporting mothers, particularly new ones and encouraging them to find their own way.

Suggesting that they try something is okay, condemning them because they don't use your system is not.

I would like to ask you what makes you think that a baby has any notiion of what is should be doing? It doesn't know what day and night is, it can't even control it's own limbs how can a child put itself into a routine? The answer is it doesn't it 'falls' into a routine and if the parent doesn't influence that routine baby can end up with some haphazard routine that doesn not provide the best feeding or sleeping patterns, to me it is far better to influence a sensible routine and have a happier more contented baby than to let baby do it's own thing and end up with a tired, grumpy and irritable baby

And don't forget that sleep is essential for babies health and wellbeing, every mum should make good sleeping habits a priority is it just as important as good nutrition yet it often gets neglected, because as the experts never tire of telling us 'babies are too young to stick to a schedule'. Well, yes baby is too young, but the mother isn't and if mother operates to a routine baby will enevitably fall in with mum's routine.

Think about it logically, a baby led routine (i.e. baby falls into it's own routine) cannot possibly be as organised and as balanced as a mother led routine. Surely it makes sense that a mother influenced routine will be more efficient, convenient and better able to provide for all babies needs that one decided by a person who has no cognitive thought pattern.

SILLYCAT
It is nice to see that you do seem to know what you are talking about and not just thrusting your way of bringing up baby on parents.

Unfortunatly I have tried to reson with Continuum Momma before, but it has got me nowhere, I don't think she could even be bothered to reply, either that or she was so annoyed/upset about someone giving her a few home truthes that she just refused to reply.

It is a shame that some mothers are tottally shunned by her just because we do something that she 'feels' is wrong.
She rarely has anything to backherself up with when she starts critasising people, other than her own personal experiences.
We all have different experiences when bringing our babies up, but there is no hard a fast rules as to what is right or wrong. As long aas we are making sure our babies are slept well, have good diets, and plenty of attention, stimulation and love, then we cannot go far wrong.

Like you say SillyCat there is no harm in baby being slightly helped out with a 'natural' feeding pattern that helps the day flow better. If like you say, the school run needs doing, but you expect baby will be hungry then, offering baby a feed just before is a great idea, and definatly better than baby screaming in the back of the car.
Also on the other side of things, if you are in the car and baby is hungry, not much can be done, baby will just have to wait. But if you anticipate this, and 'guide' baby a little with a little help, then the day can be a bit more stress free.

I would love more info about breastfeeding.

Off someone like yourself, who knows what they are talking about, and doesn't make me feel like a bad mother for doing what I do.