However, I dont think that routines are all bad. This particular one is very nasty and there is no way on Earth I would leave my baby outside for three hours!!
I want to see what people say to defend this method
I don't support this method, but I, like you, think that routine can be a good thing provided you take into consideration that a baby does not understand routine and that you need to be flexible within your routine.
I do agree with the feeding routine for the most part, I breast fed my baby every three hours at first then upped it to every four hours, after the first few weeks she slept well through the night, I think the more milk a baby drinks through the day the less they need at night. It is often a mistake to assume that everytime your baby cries they are hungry.
What I strongly disagree with is leaving any baby to cry, okay you shouldn't run to them everytime they whimper but no baby should be left to cry for longer than a few minutes, your motherly instinct is there for a reason! As for leaving your baby outside, well it is important that babies get fresh air, but it's just not safe to leave a baby outside on it's own!
I also disagree that baby should be in it's own room from the start, but I do think it's imporant to get them own cot and then into their own room before they reach 12 months old.
I personally believe the only routine you need for a baby is a feeding one and even then you have to take into account that everyone's hunger levels fluctuate at times and be a little flexable. I found that once I got the feeding sorted the rest just slotted into place.
im not in favour of CV and her routine. i just kind of go with the flow and set my pace at the babys, so if he is hungry i will feed him, if hes tierd ill let him sleep. by doing this my baby is happy and healthy but also he has made his own routine over the six months. He started sleeping through at 4 weeks. all i can say about the whole routine thing to the extent CV has done it, is the people who have done it will probley look back in years to come and regret missing out on all those lovely bonding moments with there baby they didnt get.
I don't agree with CV methods it so inflexiable My babies fell in to natural feeding routine anyway fed every 3 hour as they got older and took more milk they went in to 4 hour routine, I started a bedtime routine with a bath,baby massage afterwards and a nice cosy feed and they went to bed at about 8-830 we lived in flat at the time so they were only in the next room, but as they grow they are able to take more milk they naturally dropped the 3am feed. It wasn't rigid, but it worked for me.
For the first 3 months of my babys life I followed Gina Ford (i know she gets a lot of bad press) I didnt use it to the letter but just the general jist of it. My baby is 5 months now, she has only just started sleeping through from 10pm til 7am. I found that aroutine helps you to know what your baby wants and when which can be really helpful in early parenthood. But does anyone else think that too much emphasis is put on "sleeping through the night"? And at what cost are some people getting this?
I agree that their is nothing wrong with routines. But the advice given by Claire Verity is not about establishing a baby friendly routine. It is about forcing babies by means of starving, force feeding and leaving to cry just to get them sleeping through the night at early age. This is nothing like the routines advocated in the Contented Little Baby Book. Check out www.contentedbaby.com to see Gina Ford's views on Bringing up Baby.
The Contented Little Baby routines encourage a baby to gradually take the milk it requires in the daytime by teaching it the difference between day and night. They do not suggest you should leave your baby to cry itself to sleep. They also work with the current guidelines on S.I.D.S. I only used the CLB routine as a guide and it worked well for me. No, my baby does not sleep from 7 til 7 but she sleeps well and is very happy when she is awake. When she gets a bit grumpy I know exactly whats wrong with her. Surely a happy and healthy baby is more important than a baby who sleeps though the night from an early age.
Honeyzest - I too followed Gina Ford and would recommend it to anyone.....I adapted it, like you for myself and thought it was extremely helpful...my own midwife frowned when I said that I had read GF and thought it had been helpful but then my midwife did not have any children....ok so GF may not have any children either but her advice was far better than my midwife's.
Originally posted by karen999: Honeyzest - I too followed Gina Ford and would recommend it to anyone.....I adapted it, like you for myself and thought it was extremely helpful...my own midwife frowned when I said that I had read GF and thought it had been helpful but then my midwife did not have any children....ok so GF may not have any children either but her advice was far better than my midwife's.
Don't listen to anything Karen999 says - she agrees with controlled crying - even though psychologists say that you shouldn't use the controlled crying method before the baby is 6 months old (and even then it's better to wait until the baby is a year old)...
Bluie - I have never asked anybody to listen to me. This is a forum and as such people are entitled to post their opintions....if some do not agree with my opinions then fair enough...I could not care less about what you think!
And as for CC - please do not make me out to be the only one who uses this method - perhaps you should try reading other parenting forums!! If you choose not to use or adopt this method then that is fine. I have no issue about whatever parenting method/style you use....it is your choice and only you know what you and your baby feel comfortable with! As I have mentioned in earlier posts, with my first baby I basically let her dictate the pace/sleeping and feeding times etc - and for me I am still paying the price......with my second daughter I wanted to try another approach....I have....and I have never looked back!!!
I simply can't believe the ignorance of some parents. There is a huge difference between using controlled crying with an older baby who has a serious sleep association problem which is affecting the health of the baby and the whole family, to using this method with tiny newborn babies to force them to sleep longer - which is what CV advised. Please do not detract from what this whole debat is about, it is about CV advising that tiny babies should be denied food, and starved of affection in order to get them to sleep longer.
Well i think some people are so wet. I can's say i stick to the CV routine, but the way i am bringing up my baby would be more like her routine than any of the other two mentors on the show. I am 29, had my baby in June and she is 5 months old. I followed Gina Ford and am not ashamed of it, don't know why she gets such bad press. I have a very very happy baby who has slept through the night from six weeks. I didn't breast feed - tried it for 10 days and to stop was one of the best decisions i have made in my life. I think it is appaling that midwives and health visitors make you feel guilty for giving up. And for all of these fuddy duddy, woolly wet mums that don't mind not sleeping through the night and don't feel that it is important milestone, i can tell you categorically now that i have never apart from the first 4 weeks of my babies life have i felt sleep deprived and because of this i have been able to be a much better mum for my baby. I am full of energy through the day to entertain her and do really nice things with her and lots of activities.
If people want to be wet mums and instill no routine and be sleep deprived, i see no problem with it. However, don't criticise the people that choose to have more of a CV approach, it suits some people.
Originally posted by Katie Jane: Well i think some people are so wet. I can's say i stick to the CV routine, but the way i am bringing up my baby would be more like her routine than any of the other two mentors on the show. I am 29, had my baby in June and she is 5 months old. I followed Gina Ford and am not ashamed of it, don't know why she gets such bad press. I have a very very happy baby who has slept through the night from six weeks. I didn't breast feed - tried it for 10 days and to stop was one of the best decisions i have made in my life. I think it is appaling that midwives and health visitors make you feel guilty for giving up. And for all of these fuddy duddy, woolly wet mums that don't mind not sleeping through the night and don't feel that it is important milestone, i can tell you categorically now that i have never apart from the first 4 weeks of my babies life have i felt sleep deprived and because of this i have been able to be a much better mum for my baby. I am full of energy through the day to entertain her and do really nice things with her and lots of activities.
If people want to be wet mums and instill no routine and be sleep deprived, i see no problem with it. However, don't criticise the people that choose to have more of a CV approach, it suits some people.
Most people who have babies want exactly that - babies not robots. If you want something that complies at 4 weeks old, get a puppy.
I do not really have a routine as such with my son, although he does have a long morning nap, a shorter afternoon nap, and is usually asleep by half 7. He does feed during the night, so does not sleep through, but that is fine for me, because I have gone back to part time work, and i want to make sure that he has as much milk as he needs. He was in his own room from 9 months, but he sleeps on a futon, (he finds the cot to constricting now and does not settle), this works for me because when he is hungry I can join him on the futon, and because he is an active sleeper, I do not need to worry about him hitting himself off the sides of the cot,and as the futon is floor level, the most he can do is roll off! In answer to a previous post, I think that that too much emphasis is placed on sleeping through, and I am aware that if my son did that, he may miss out on important nutrients.
Sleeping through the night I suppose is valued by most in this culture, but it does REALLY depend upon the culture and values associated with it. My baby is mixed Hong Kong Chinese; whereas British culture in general seems to place a high emphasis on a sleeping routine, it is not so there. In fact, as my husband often says, babies will sleep when they are tired. For me that is fine, for all his family that is fine, and it is also fine for the family over here. In the same way that for me it is fine for my baby to sleep on a futon not in a cot.
I do not consider myself to be a particularly 'wet' mom as Katie Jane seems to think mom's are whose babies do not sleep without disturbance through the night, I just consider myself to be open to different ways of doing things, and if those ways suit my son and me all the better! Oh and what is more, I do not feel sleep deprived in the least, and as I do not expect an uninterrupted night sleep, if my baby is up more than usual, it doesn't faze me and I can still function in my professional life to the same standard as if he has a comparatively 'settled' night.
Katie Jane - you seem to think that it is 'wet' to put the needs of your baby ahead of your own. Interesting. Personally, I think that it is somewhat 'wet' to allow one's own 'need' for a full night's sleep to become more important than your baby's needs for nutrition in the nighttime hours.
You refer to giving up breast feeding when your baby was less than 2 weeks old as a decision, and a good one, so I actually can't take you seriously. You are either astoundingly ill-informed, or extremely selfish. (Unless I conmpletely misunderstood your post - and you had complications that meant formula was necessary for your baby's health, in which case I apologise.) I think it's appalling that some hvs and mws DON'T stress the importance of breast milk to mothers who contemplate giving up so soon without a sound reason. You feel guilty because you ARE guilty. Choosingnot to breast feed (as opposed to be unable to do so) is a selfish act - putting your own wishes before the health and wellbeing of your child.
I don't actually think that sleeping through has very much to do with a strict routine or what the baby is fed - I think it depends on the individual baby. Sleep deprivation occurs when you have a drastically reduced amount of sleep from the norm. My 8 1/2 month old son doesn't sleep through, but it is only when he started waking more often than previously that I have felt the effects. Let's hope your daughter doesn't ever get ill, have separation anxiety, or any of the other issues that could change your perfect little robot world. Being used to a full night's sleep is NOT necessarily a good thing when you're a mum!
Nickycky - you say "sleep deprivation occurs when you have a drastically reduced amount of sleep from the norm" - YES - you are correct and for most people this is usually because they have had a baby!! Sleep deprivation can have a terrible effect on a mother and a family as a whole.
You are doing the cause of promoting breastfeeding absolutley no good by accusing people of being selfish for choosing not to do so - it is up to the individual mother what to do in the interests of herself and her bay - would you push a mother, who may be suffering from PND to breastfeed when perhaps by switching to formula may help her and then her baby?? I think it is extremely narrow minded to accuse women who do not breastfeed - FOR WHATEVER REASON - as being selfish.
Let's get real - we all have different ways of bringing up baby but I can't see the point of accusing some mothers as being selfish for making choices that benefit them and their child.
Sorry, Karen, I thought I had made it clear that I was accusing only women who choose not to breastfeed of selfishness. If PND is actually preventing you from breastfeeding, then it is not a choice but a necessity to formula feed. I would never accuse someone of being selfish if they believed they were choosing to use formula to benefit their child. I might well disagree with them, as breast milk is categorically better for both mother and baby than formula. It's like choosing to feed a child their 5 fruit and veg a day, or nothing but chocolate and crisps. The child will survive on either - may even be happier with the latter - but do you not think that someone should point out to the parents the risks versus the benefits of these diets?
On the sleep deprivation thing - I had less and less sleep throughout my pregnancy (my son really liked bouncing on my bladder. He still does actually!) In the last couple of months I was lucky to get 2 hours consecutive sleep without a loo break. It actually got marginally better when my son was born! My point was that the amount of sleep you require to function is a lot less than you think it is - if you have a baby, once you are used to nighttime wakings, they are not going to impair your ability as a mother to the extent that Katie Jane seems to imply.
I agree, women who *choose* and don't even attempt to breastfeed with no good medical reason are selfish in my eyes...I've yet to meet one who gives a me an explanation as why. What happens is they get all stroppy and accuse me of a being a lactivist. Instead of actually answering the question why one earth would you choose to artificially feed your baby. So how can I understand that decision if nobody has told me why? If these woman explained perhaps it could help breastfeeding organisations help these women and babies.
I have no idea how quitting breastfeeing it would benefit PND, you can take antidepressants and feed, I imagine the guilt of bottlefeeding could make the more feel worse and the fact that studies show breastfeeding has a calming effect on mother and baby will help.
Morning - it always surprises me when everyone says they want the best for their babies - and then CHOOSE not to breastfeed. It is a contradiction in terms.
I believe that a lot of post natal depression is cause actaully by not being able to have the birth you wanted/bonding time afterwards etc and not breastfeeding - I think it is a sub conscious thing but an inherent need in all mothers to nurture and nurse their babies - if it is not there then at some level this can contribute to an awful lot of guilt although you may not link the two issues. I had a natural birth but missed the vonteuse cap by 30seconds - they were all ready to do it and my bub flew out, but I had wanted a calm peaceful waterbirth. I have pangs of guilt about that and they are irrational I know but if I had had a vonteuse birth I would have felt even worse. I am not saying all these births are bad, but evidence shows that if you have a calm, peacful birth and breastfeed you are less likely to suffer with PND> I know there will be exceptions - I am not saying it is 100% foolproof. But I think that at a primitive level, mothers have a need to feed their babies - we need to have that instinct to survive.
I tried the Mongan method of hypnobirthing which was very effective and she talks about that in there - it may help someone.
i found that breast feeding was the major bonding factor with my baby. i had a long, tough labour but thanks to 2 good community midwives i got my planned home birth. i went into an internal panic after the birth and found it difficult to cope with almost a 'fear' of handling her. my partner was fantastic and patient and did most of the dressing/changing/bathing for the first week or so because i would go into complete meltdown if she started to cry. but the rest of our time was spent gently cuddling and feeding and it gave us chance to get to know each other.
if i'd bottle fed i might have withdrawn from her completely.
**************************** Beware of the Loons!!! FAF #40
I too used Gina Ford to help me with my first child. An inexperienced mother has no idea what the reality of child rearing will be like, but after reading Gina Fords advice I felt a lot better equiped to deal with what motherhood would throw at me. They were MY routines, not my babies and I never expected anything from her. Quite simply these routines allowed me to be organised and be able to relax and enjoy my baby.
That said though, I didn't follow ALL her advice, just the parts that I agreed with.
Who wouldn't want their child to sleep through the night? Surely only a masochist would actually WANT their child to be up several times in the night?
What is being said here is that the parents needs shouldn't come before the childs, but I disagree with this attitude, I think it has to be a compromise, a child with a parent who is so tired they are unable to cope is a detriment to that child, so it's in everyone's best interests to achieve night time peace. The one thing you would never do is expect this to happen instantly, in most cases babies are physically unable to last 12 hours without a feed until they are at least a couple of months old (although there are always exceptions to every rule!). The fact is, though, that once they are past the two month mark you should, theoretically, be able to ensure that your baby takes enough milk during the day to nourish their bodies overnight, thus eliminating the need for night feeding. However this doesn't have any effect upon other reasons for night waking.
Surely the sooner your baby gets used to sleeping through the night the more natural it will be for them to continue doing so? My belief is that you have 12 months with any child to get them into a routine of sleeping, eating and pretty much everything really, much past that first year and they are learning bad habits that will be harder for you to correct later on.
The other thing that really irritates me is the 'mothers who do not breastfeed are selfish brigade'. I breastfed myself and am a breastfeeding advocate - it is totally the right thing to do for your baby, but I do not feel that it gives me the right to undermine other parents who, for whatever reason, decide that breastfeeding is not for them. No one has the right to decide for others what is best for them and condemning them outright by saying they are selfish tends to merely enforce the opinion that breastfeeding mothers are middle-aged hags who's only interest is making others feel small so that they themselves can feel superior and it is this feeling that puts other mothers (particularly younger ones) off breastfeeding in the first place.
As has been pointed out on another thread 2 mothers out of every 100 cannot breastfeed physically, but consider the many more who have been misinformed, ill-advised and unsupported, next add in those who's children are mentally or physically unable to breastfeed from them and those mothers who psychologically cannot breastfeed and the number who have legitimate reasons for not doing so is larger than you would assume.
Even those mothers who have no other reason for not wishing to breastfeed than personal choice (or selfishness if you choose to see it that way), do they really deserve to be looked down upon by mothers who did? What does it actually achieve to make them feel that way? Does it make them start to breastfeed? No, it doesn't, all it achieves is to make yourselves feel superior and I don't like that at all!
There are good breastfeeding mothers and bad breastfeeding mothers, the same is true for non-breastfeeding mothers. What is going to affect a child most, whether he was breastfed or whether he was loved and nurtured?
Beyond nutrition there are many other ways of compensating for a lack of breastfeeding. You can still bond with a bottle fed baby, and more importantly a father gets a better chance to bond with a bottle fed baby, so whilst I would still advocate breastfeeding to anyone, I will also admit that (apart from nutritionally) there are ways you can adapt to ensure your baby gets all the other benefits that come along with breastfeeding.
I just think that being a parent is difficult enough without all this rubbish, what we should be doing is trying to understand each others reasons for our differences rather than making harsh, unjustified, judgements!
