I'm not clear where anyone has said that if you put your baby in to a routine you do not love your baby.

I think that what I am picking up on is that new mothers want to do what is 'right' for their babies and follow what they are advised to do. They love their babies desperately and want to do what is right for them.

Every family is different and you have to do what suits your own circumstances.

However... *if* a routine is for the sole reason of having a 'Happy Mummy' and then believing that a 'Happy Baby' will automatically follow.. then there is a bounty of research to say that this is NOT the case. Long term emotional development happens in the first few months of life. If a baby is put in a routine that denies physical needs - and the primary need of a baby (over the need to eat) is to be held.. then however much we may believe we have done something out of love and for the best of our children.. we could actually be inflicting emotional damage on our children.

A child can still be held by someone other than his mother and this need can be met. The need will not be met if no one is picking the child up and holding them when they need to be held.. but after a while, the child will 'comply' and sleep through the night. Be all happy in the day even - because there will be no point in ever being unhappy because mummy only wants to see the baby when he is happy or asleep.

LilBigMouth - of course a child can be held by whoever and their 'needs' can be met

but you are suggesting (correct me if I am wrong) that my child 'complies'.....I can assure you that this is not the case!! My daughter is a typical fiery red head and does not 'comply'!!!....if she is not happy then she lets me know....and I am there for her....but if she is not happy then I can assure you that she lets me know!!! And mummy is there for her!!!

No, Karen..

I'm saying that *some* mothers (such as *myself*) followed a routine as directed to by my HV and now I'm suffering the consequences and so is my son. I have done all this research *after* I did CC with my firstborn.

I am suggesting that there may be consequences for this whole routine philosoophy that we just don't know yet.

Hi LilBig Mouth...am interested...I too have followed a routine....what are the consequences?..I am not aware and so would really appreciate it if you could share these with me...I thought by introducing a routine that this would be beneficial for my daughter!!????? mind you, my HV never directed me to do this...come to think of it my HV did not say much...cannot blame her - she looked about 20 and was so nervous that I ended up giving her the answers!!

Sure, Karen!

I think it became most noticeable when he was about 4 - and started to fear being in bed alone. He was really scared of going to bed. He started picking his nails and fingers till they bled. He became very secretive, he drew very disturbing pictures.. he had problems at school and was diagnosed with clinical depression at age 6.

I thought he knew he could come to me if he had any problems.. but he was terrified, and didn't tell us anything.

He still has issues with making friends and has dabbled in petty thieving.

Finding out that this kind of behaviour can be traced back to how much touch and attachment a child has in infancy was a real eye opener. If you haven't read the research by Margo Sunderland, it is fascinating stuff.

I tried asking on another thread.. is there any peer reviewed scientific research in to the outcome of babies of CC in later life that shows a positive outcome? I have not been able to find it.

Nope, I've never found anything pro cc either. Just one paper on how "it works" as in the babies give up and sleep through. No mention of the consequences for the baby.

Hi, thanks for posting back...gosh was not aware of this kind of impact, although I have to say that my eldest daugher had ALL these issues and I pretty much followed the 1960/70's approach first time around....!

I (and my sister) were pretty much raised on the 1950's method and are fine (ok some may argue otherwise!!) I am not sure but is depression not a pre-disposed genetic illness? Please forgive me if this is an ignorant comment.....it's just my understanding of this kind of illness...

I know what I am goin to say is just from my experience, but I will share anyway....
My mum carried me in a sling and I slept in her bed, but I was a very insecure child and sufferred depression from a young age, needing treatment by a psychiatrist, and still am a very anxious person.
I just wonder how much of our personalities is wired into us before we are born, and whether we can explain everything by nurture, and neglect the role of genetics.
I pick my son up whenever he appears remotely unsettled in the hope it will enable him to feel secure and that someone is always there for him, I hope it works and that the genetics idea is wrong.

No - I think it is to do with a chemical imbalance in the brain.. and when the hard wiring of these chemicals is being made .. if a child is stressed, then more of the 'stress' chemicals are released in the brain and the imbalance is created.

Depression is a huge illness in cultures that detach from their young.

I see it a bit like smoking, some will get cancer, some won't. Doesn't mean smoking is ok. I think certain children will be more vunerable to detached parenting than others. Boys are a little more susceptible than girls for a start. http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/321/7276/1609

There are probably many other factors we are just beginning to understand.

This hard wiring occurs in the first early months years of life..

(I need permissions to edit, LOL)

This is the research done by the mental health experts and Margot Sunderland.

Thanks Moogy!

that was a very helpful link.

I totally agree! Last night my 7 month little girl woke up at silly oclock so I took her in beside me and she told me a long story, sang me a song, played with my hair and fell asleep holding my hand! I'm at work today, tired but very happy! It makes me smile everytime I think of it. I don't see what all the fuss is about sleeping through, and I don't think that it should be used as a measure for the different parenting styles - surely it's more important that you have happy, sociable kids? I quite like my little private times with my baby with no-one else around.

Depression can be a mental health issue that you're pre-disposed to through genetics, (the 'feel good' chemicals that occur in your brain are at lower levels than normal). Also, a 'stressful' environment can also trigger a chain of chemical reactions in the brain that can result in depression. I'm sure there's lots of other causes too ...

I don't think people necessarily want to get their lives back to exactly how they were before, but a lot of women do want to return to work fairly soon, and not just for financial reasons. I personally don't think that's a bad thing, everyone's different

I imagine that when I have kids I won't have any choice but to return to work fairly soon; what with house prices how they are I can see it being a massive struggle otherwise. Also, I'm hoping to go into law: a career where you can't really take a lot of time out without backtracking massively. A career is very important to me as I'm sure it is to others and I don't think its selfish to pursue that. After all, a mum who stays at home doesn't necessarily equal a good mum, just as a mum who wants to work and do something for herself isn't necessarily a bad one

Re. depression, a lot of it is down to genetics and also triggered by traumatic occurrences. I don't think someone is going to end up depressed just because they spent less time with their parents when they were young; likewise someone who does spend lots of time with their parents isn't necessarily going to avoid depression. A possible link could be that parents who go back to work may have more financial worries and be more stressed than parents who stay at home: and this will rub off on a child. Also mums who are keen to return to high powered careers may be more likely to push their children, which could cause stress and related issues.

I was lucky in getting pregnant young, I was at university and so I've not had a second income to lose. We are used to having a tiny house, struggling to pay bills and no holidays. I did try and work when I had just one. I cried everyday and on antidepressants, my son became spiteful. My Gp told me to quit in the end. I was so glad he did. We were all so much happier.
I imagine if you buy a house based on 2 incomes to lose one would be hard.

I think the routine obsession is a control thing, we are used to having a set way of doing things at school and work and a have a way of measuring success. Babies aren't like that.

quote:

Originally posted by barbie86:
I don't think people necessarily want to get their lives back to exactly how they were before,

Sadly, some people do want this, and they are the ones who want to be able to feed and play with thier babies only whan it suits them, not when the baby needs it, routines like CV promotes are snapped up by these silly, selfish people.

quote:

Originally posted by barbie86:
After all, a mum who stays at home doesn't necessarily equal a good mum, just as a mum who wants to work and do something for herself isn't necessarily a bad one

I couldn't agree more. I returned to work (3 days a week) after I had my children, partly because we needed my income but also because I wanted to retain my "professional" life and social contact. As a result I spend 4 days at home being a happy, dedicated Mum to my girls and they get the best of me, and they get the social experience of nursery, so we are all happy. I know of "non-working" mothers who sit in front of Jeremy Kyle all day smoking and ignoring thier children, so you can't mske sweeping generalisations about stay-at-home mums and working mums. A good mum is a good mum, and rubbish mum is a rubbish mum, staying at home with the children is not an indicator of which one you are.

quote:

Originally posted by barbie86:I don't think someone is going to end up depressed just because they spent less time with their parents when they were young; likewise someone who does spend lots of time with their parents isn't necessarily going to avoid depression.

It doesn't have to be the parents, as long as the baby has lots of contact with a stable carer (or carers) either grandparents, childminders or a good day-care nursery, it doesn't have to be mum that is with baby all day every day. And it's not contact with parents that does or doesn't cause depression, it's allowing the baby/child to be in stressful situations (and these are not what we think are stressful to us, but what is actually stressful to a baby, for example; babies have an in-built instinctive fear of abandonment, so to be left alone, with thier cries unanswered, is the most stressful thing a baby or small child can go through.) As long as babies and small children are having thier needs met and feel secure they will not have excess stress hormones (mainly cortisol) in thier systems, and these hormones can impact on the way the brain develops. One possible outcome is depression, and if you look at the massive rates of depression in the "western world" it's quite alarming that we are still having these potentially harmful techniques advocated by childcare experts and healthcare practitioners.

Hiya everyone, I think we can all agree that when we have babies our lives will change. And I think it depends on the type of support network you have around you, as to the type of life you lead following the birth of a child.
I live away from my parents, but near to my in laws. And Mum in law has the views that you have plenty of time to do things without your children when they are older and more independant. She tells me on a regular basis that before you know it, they will be grown up and that you will have missed it all.
I used to feel left out, all my friends were going out to the pub, or round each others houses at christmas etc. And it took me until I had my second to realise I had spent almost 2 years wishing that he would grow up. Now I spend all my daughters waking time, kissing and cuddling both of them. Although, I can already see that my son finds it strange as he is not used to all the contact. It breaks my heart, and I wish I could have my time again with him.
Even now I see how estranged he is as he sit's on the floor playing with his car and it brings tears to my eyes. People used to tell me how good he was, that he would play on his own, and entertain himself from a young age. What was strange was that his aunty used to say ' I won't pick him up, because he is happy'. But I know now, it is much more rewarding to be holding a happy baby, than it is to be trying to calm down a baby who is upset because all they want is to be held, and felt loved.
I know that is not all that babies need, but imagine how you would feel, if the one person who you loved so much and counted on for everything cuddled you that little bit more.
If my partner would cuddle me all day, I would think I was living on cloud nine. It would be an amazing feeling. To be able to make my babies feel like that is wonderful.

Now I know how fast they are growing up, I shower them with all the snuggle's and kisses they want.

I have all the time in world to be doing other things. No rush for me.

Hi, I'm just joining in with a comment. My baby is 5 months now and I realise that it's not routines that are bad but forcing your baby into a routine. Now that he isn't a newborn any more I have tried a bedtime and nap routine, eg he has 'teeth cleaned' bath, massage, feed, book (the same book each night) and listening to lullabies on CD. He responds to this routine by going to sleep and sleeping better than he had recently before. He enjoys it.
I also try to get him to have 3 proper naps a day, and he feels better.
I had read about the evils of forcing your baby into a strict routine, but I hadn't realised what is obvious to many, that a gentle routine can be helpful. I am still learning.
I am still appalled by the programme.

Hi potato eater, like yourself can agree that a gentle routien is helpful. I always do the same thing eacjnight for the bedtime routien. My sone goes up and gets changed, brushes his teeth, has his story and then bed.
My daughter (4 months) has playtime with clothes off for 10 mins, a massage, dressed, fed, cuddled, put in sleeping bag, and then in moses basket. Her bedtime varies each night as she doesn't feed at a certain time, so, bedtime goes along with the last feed of the day, anywhere between 7.30 and 8.30.
I do as you are doing and encourage her to have a few good nap's a day, but with my son about the place, it is hard for her to nap.