Hi All
I'm not a fan at all of Claire Verity's overall routines at all, but I do remember that the night sleep routine didn't seem too harsh.
Anyway, I'm pregnant again and don't want the same problems as before i.e. not getting to sleep until 3am due to crying baby.
Can someone remind me what the routine was, was it something like, feed the baby, don't give them all the milk, then half an hour later give them the rest???? What times are you supposed to do this etc..
Am hoping to breastfeed, so don't know how this will fit in, but in case I have problems a reminder of the routine will be great.
Thanks

Hi,

If you are going to breastfeed and want to get maximum sleep, forget a routine, just put the baby in the bed with you.

Hi, thanks Continuum Momma

But, for me personally I don't agree with babies going in to bed with you, I'd always be paranoid about suffocating my baby. If others think it works for them, then good, but it's not my thing!

I'm hoping to bf, but last time I had lots of problems so had to give up (which I was very upset about). This might happen again, so need the backup.

Ok Muran,

SO you don't like the idea of the baby in the bed. However, following a routine is the worst way to try to establish breastfeeding. You need to feed totally on demand, no matter how soon it is since the last feed, breastfed babies don't go four hours between feeds, it's more like 1 or 2 for the first few weeks, then bit by bit it stretches out to 3 hours or more.

I suggest you do some thinking about sleeping arrangements, co-sleeping in the natural human norm, a breastfeeding mother is aware of her baby even when she is asleep, so it is extremely unlikely that you would roll onto the baby, unless you have been drinking alcohol or taking sleeping pills etc. You are more likely to injure your baby by dropping him/her if you fall asleep in a chair whilst feeding them in the early hours, than by rolling over in bed. Safe co-sleeping is just that, safe. You put the baby between you and the edge of the bed, with a cotside or something to prevent the baby falling off the bed, not between you and your partner/husband. Don't have the duvet over the baby and don't put them on a pillow or surround them by soft bedding or cushions. 75% of the world shares sleep with thier babies, and the incidence of cot-death in these countries is virtually nil.

As this is your second baby, you are probably not going to be able to nap in the day, and if you have another small child to care for in the day you really need to be getting as much sleep as possible, and the way to do this is to sleep with your baby! I know you don't want to hear it, but it's true!! Try reading "Three in a Bed" by Deborah Jackson

Find a breastfeeding support group near you and start going now, before your baby is born. The LLL or ABM may have a group near you, or try looking for the NCT or a Bby Cafe. Don't expect your Midwife to be a bf expert, they often have very little training in bf support, and may well give you conflicting and poor advice.

Good luck!

As much as the 1950's style seems to promote babies slepping throught the night... and having a routien helps them at bedtime, this doesn't always work, my children are 2, and 7 months, so a routien helps me in a day, but it has never been set in stone, and is based around their needs and not my own.

Unfortunatly a routien doesn not make a happy baby. Some babies will never sleep through the night totally as they all have dofferent needs nutritionally. A baby who feeds every 3 hours is not as likely so sleep as long at night as a baby who feeds every 4 hours.
Also with BF, the milk is digested better and faster, so baby needs feeding m ore frequently, and making them skip, or go longer between feeds just to get them to sleep is unfair.

In my case my children do not have big appetites, and never associated being fed and full with going to sleep. So they did sleep well from a young age, but my friends son fed alot and didn't seep through until he was about 5 + months, and he still has a feed at about 11 to see him through til morning.

As CM says, if you want good sleep and to BF in the bed is probably the best place, but if this is not for you, just start a good sleep association early on, and don't rely completly on the baby being full to the brim to be able to sleep. If You want your baby to sleep seperate from you, in a moses basket, try the trick of putting baby down for sleep when they show signs of tirdness, put them down, and help them to learn how to drop off alone, the earlier they can do this the better. When baby wakes in the night, if not hungry at least they know how to settle themself back off without waking you up for help.

Hi and many thanks for your advice.

I'm not gung ho for a routine at all and last time we didn't have one. I was just thinking about other options on how to get new baby to sleep more, if the best way to do it is to get in to a routine, them I'm all for it - especially if it means I get more sleep and it means I'm selfish, then so be it!!!

What did work last time whilst I was bf was topping up with formula before going to bed, this help my lo sleep longer.

I have a 2 year old, who up until 3 weeks did not sleep through the night for more than about 5 times, I'm not keen on having this sleep pattern again.

But this said, like you say, every baby is different, routines may or may not work, I was just planning on having a backup.

THanks again

Well the best advice can give is help baby learn to fall asleep on their own as soon as possible. Obviously this will not work at first as baby will naturally fall asleep at the breast. But You can still put baby straight down in a moses basket. I Found that swaddling baby, or holding them in a blanket lossely worked so that when you put baby back down they are still warm from the blanket, otherwise the shock of a cold bed after being cuddled is enought to wake them, or anyone really. It worked for my two. So all I can do is give advice that worked for me.

It must be very difficult to follow CV routine if you plan to bf, as milk is produced on demand. I can understand you wanting to have a normal nights sleep, i know my 11 month daughter still does not sleep the night and it is really hard. We are going to put her in her own room soon, I think that she is ready.

I think that with the CV night time routine, you cut out the last night time feed and replace it with baby porridge so that the baby keeps longer. Hoever, this might not be good for a young baby as I think that their digestive systems are still developing (i am no medical expert, just giving my own personal opinion). Once the baby is in their cot in their own room, you leave them, even if they cry they will fall to sleep on their own eventually! If they are still crying after 15mins you go to them.

This is awfully harsh! Babies do tend to feed little and often even through the night as their stomachs are still small and cannot take a great amount of milk. As was seen on the Bringing up Babies show, one of the mums were trying to overfeed their young baby with the bottle, and milk was flowing out of their mouth (their stomachs could not take it.

I think people find it difficult to understand that a baby doesn't need to feel full in order to sleep, some babies sleep no matter what, yet others feel hungry very easily.

A young baby will wake up often as they cannot take much, like piglet said, they only have tiny tummies.

I wish there was a simple answer too. But I'm sticking with the two I have, and i'm lucky they both like a good ights sleep. My technique worked with both.

I breastfed my daughter, she slept next to me in her crib for six months then whent straight into her cot in her own room, by which time she didn't need feeding in the night anyway, because she was drinking her daily quota of milk throughout the day.

Breastfeeding and routine can and DOES work. A disagree with feeding on demand, especially with breastfeeding, I feel that if you push your nipple in your babies mouth everytime they cry your asking for trouble. Your breasts need at the very least a couple of hours in order to replenish themselves. If you end up feeding ever half hour because the baby demands it, your breast will have far less milk for baby to drink who will most definately be demanding a feed again soon because there wasn't enough milk in the breast.

The other problem I have with feeding on demand and having your child in bed with you, apart from the small chances of injuring your baby, is that the baby gets used to that feeling of someone sleeping with them and when you then decide it's time they went into their own room, the baby is not going to like it.

I think that reading Gina Fords - Contented Baby book will help you, it does have routines, but they are no where near as strict or harsh as the 50's style routines. It also explains the important of NOT feeding on demand to enable your breast to replenish themselves fully in between feeds and thus ensuring your baby gets as much milk as possible during the day, leaving the night free for a good nights sleep for you both.

I'd just like to point out that the amount of breastmilk you make increases as the baby grows so there should never be a situation where you have more milk that the baby's stomach can hold. Nature is so good at getting the balance right, all you have to do is give your body time to make more milk. It's very easy when you think about it.

Of course in the first few weeks a baby will definately need feeding at night, there is no avoiding that, but after the first 6-8 weeks, there is no physical reason why your baby should not be able to sleep through the night.

Think of your baby's feeding habits as fuel in, fuel out, the more fuel your baby takes the longer he or she can go without needing a top up. If they don't take enough milk or fuel then you can expect them to ask for more sooner. I suppose it's up to the individual, but I would much rather have a three or four hour period in between feeds than every hour or so, I think i'd go insane on that schedule.

Routines are great provided that they are flexible enough to adapt to the ever changing and sometimes whimsical needs of a baby.

Think about it this way, a baby is not mentally capable of co-ordinating their own limbs how can you expect them to organise their own eating and sleeping schedule? Thats what parents are for.

They are all very good points sillycat, and also very simlar to what I am doing with my daughter, she never got fed with ever whimper as parents are good at determiming that a baby cries for many more reasons other than hunger. ASnd like you say, I hungry child is likely to take a full feed and go longer than a child who 'grazes' every couple of hours. And again, I agree that the more food or 'fuel' a baby has in the day can also help them at night. After all, a human being can only eat so much in 24 hours. But I also tell myself my children can't tell the time, and they are hungry..... when they are hungry. Again, agrreing woth yourself, a flexible routine is great, and usually easily adaptable.

most people in the world may co-sleep with their babies but this is not valid proof that co-sleeping is safe. I think I mentioned in another post that my husband is from Africa and we visited his family there at Christmas time. His mum was really surprised that I was breastfeeding but had baby on a seperate mattress (they don't have cots there unless you are very rich!)I explained that I was worried about injuring my son if we shared a bed and she nodded and said that she knew of a baby who had died in this way. All of the older women in the village had a story about a baby being killed in this way. They co-sleep because they have to due to the freezing temperatures in these areas at night (and no heating in their homes) , and their husbands tend to work away from home or sleep seperately in large families so the baby is only in bed with the mother, not with both parents. They also sleep on matresses, not in raised beds like most people in Britain, so that is also safer.

quote:

Originally posted by Sillycat:
I disagree with feeding on demand, especially with breastfeeding, I feel that if you push your nipple in your babies mouth everytime they cry your asking for trouble. Your breasts need at the very least a couple of hours in order to replenish themselves. If you end up feeding every half hour because the baby demands it, your breast will have far less milk for baby to drink who will most definately be demanding a feed again soon because there wasn't enough milk in the breast.

Where did you do your breastfeeding supporter training? Who ever told you all this was very, very wrong!!

Breasts do not need time to "replenish" they make milk on a supply and demand basis. You NEED to feed on demand to get your milk supply established, feeding to a routine risks an innadequte milk supply. If you leave large gaps between feeds your breasts "think" you don't need milk, they do not fill up and store it for later!! Gina Ford knows NOTHING about breastfeeding and human lactation, neither does her "expert" advisor Clare Byam-Cook. (I read that CBC "couldn't" bf her own children because she didn't make enough milk, which, if she followed the kind of feeding system/routine she advises is hardly surprising.)

You can't "push your nipple" into a babies mouth, but you can offer it the breast when it is fussing or unsettled. The more often you feed your baby, especially in the first 6-8 weeks, the more milk you will make. Breastmilk is highly digestable, and a babies stomachs are the size of thier clenched fist (ie tiny), so babies need to feed regularly, to make them go long gaos between feeds is potentially dangerous, not only to the mothers milk supply, but can cause poor weight gain.

Sillycat, it is "advice" like yours that causes women to "fail" at breastfeeding. Check this with EVERY Breastfeeding Support organisation, ABM, LLL, NCT and so on, and you'll find they all say to feed on demand and not by the clock, and they advise it for a reason.

quote:

Originally posted by chermy:
most people in the world may co-sleep with their babies but this is not valid proof that co-sleeping is safe. I think I mentioned in another post that my husband is from Africa and we visited his family there at Christmas time. His mum was really surprised that I was breastfeeding but had baby on a seperate mattress (they don't have cots there unless you are very rich!)I explained that I was worried about injuring my son if we shared a bed and she nodded and said that she knew of a baby who had died in this way. All of the older women in the village had a story about a baby being killed in this way. They co-sleep because they have to due to the freezing temperatures in these areas at night (and no heating in their homes) , and their husbands tend to work away from home or sleep seperately in large families so the baby is only in bed with the mother, not with both parents. They also sleep on matresses, not in raised beds like most people in Britain, so that is also safer.

Most people can come up with a horror story to full-fill any theory, but the truth remains that co-sleeping is the natural way for humans to sleep, it is safe as long as you do it right (baby, mum, dad, not baby in the middle of mum and dad, take care with duvets/blankets etc). If co-sleeping was so dangerous we would have died out as a race millions of years ago. I suggest you look at the sleep studies of Helen Ball at the University of Durham http://www.dur.ac.uk/sleep.lab/projects/ .

I have never met anyone who has co-slept with there baby, not just for safty issues, but for personal social issues. I find it hard to sleep with my 7 month old next to me, never mond in the bed with me. Maybe it is something you get used to after a while, but when having my son the question was raised at ant-natal classes, and out of 15 women, not one of us knew anybody, or heard of anyone co-sleeping. So it can't be that common.

Also, I would never be able to have 'relations' in bed with a baby there, bouncing about on the matress. I know it not something you have to confine to the bed/bedroom, but when you have a 2 year old and a 7 month old, it pretty much is!
Also, I wouldn't want to inflict the actual act upon her as babies are very wise to what is going on, if my two year old saw us going at at, he'd wonder what was going on.

Breastfeeding is just as succesful with the baby next to the bed, you will just wake up more while feeding as you have to both get out of your nice warm bed. But that is only a small problem.

quote:

Originally posted by Hysteria1983:
Also, I would never be able to have 'relations' in bed with a baby there, bouncing about on the matress. I know it not something you have to confine to the bed/bedroom, but when you have a 2 year old and a 7 month old, it pretty much is!

As a freind of mine says, never sit on a co-sleepers couch, or bean bag, or floor cushions...... LOL

There are so many places to have "relations" and so many other times too, not just in bed at night time!! It just takes some inventiveness and imagination, and spontinaity!

I co-slept with my first daughter, basically because it was the only thing that would settle her. To be honest I did not enjoy it and I dont think she did either. I have no idea how my husband (at the time) did not wake her with his snoring and farting!! And then at about 6 months it became apparent that there was not enough room for all of us so my husband spent the next 4 years on the sofa/spare bed.

Hence the reason that I did not do this this time round. My second daughter was in her own cot at 12 weeks - and we all get a great nights sleep! I dont see what the big fuss is. If people want to co-sleep, the great. But it is not for every one.

Also, I like to have a few glasses of wine at the weekend and this is a big 'no-no' if you co-sleep.....that of course is an entirely selfish point but hey??!!

Like I said Continuum Momma.....

quote:

Also, I would never be able to have 'relations' in bed with a baby there, bouncing about on the matress. I know it not something you have to confine to the bed/bedroom, but when you have a 2 year old and a 7 month old, it pretty much is!

There is no spontinaity.... I can't just sneal off when I feel the 'urge' and leave my son to go feeding my daughter grapes, or try to 'play' when i'm not there as he may hurt her. He would never do it intentionally though.

I cannot say there is a problem with co-sleeping, like Karen999 says, sometimes it just doesn't work.
I ended up making a great big divide between my parents as I was in their bed for years, and my dad ebded up on a pull out bed in out front living room, and is till there now! Lol.
If a baby is particularly needed and seeks comfort and reasurance, then being in the bed is a good place, but some children are independant from a young age in which case, give them their own space.
There will come a time when the child HAS to go in their room... and what happens if they don't want to? Like me? Sleep in your parents bed until 9 years of age and almost ruin a marriage?

I beleive that at night... the children are in there own bed/cot/moses basket and then it is time for some 'us' time.
Maybe it is because I have very 'needy' children that I long for some time away. That doesn not make me a bad mum, or lessen the bond we have as a family.
My daughter sleeps right next to me, so close I can hear every breath! But hopefully by the weekend we will beging the transition to a cot!

Oh No! No! No!
I was brought up by these routines, and this is child-abuse in my opinion... Check out the other ideas Claire V suggests, like leaving baby to cry... Oh My God!
She thinks it hasn't done her any harm to be brought up this way... Sorry Claire, You're WRONG! When you get to your fifties you'll discover why... This stuff is wrong!
I never bonded with my mum or dad... And these old ideas are why...
I have major mental health problems, again, all related back to the pre Dr Benjamin Spock era... If these ideas were practiced in a childrens home, we'd call it abuse...
The N.S.P.C.C might well have something to say about it too...
Babies are not machines, to be 'programmed' as we bring them up... How can channel 4 employ someone with such radical, destructive methods of bringing a child up... I'm should phone childline about this, and I think all the other 'victims' of this kind of viscious upbringing should do so too...
Check out the other ideas claire verity employs too... I'm sorry to sound so negative, but if we do things this way, we'll be harming our children forever... depression, anxiety, low self-esteem, do we wonder where they come from?
A childs sel-worth will come from the way their parents relate to them as babies... If I were a child left crying all alone at night, or in a pram out of earshot... Just think about it...
This is child abuse, and MUST be stopped...

Just to clarify orangman... I do not follow the 1950's routine as you clearly state... it is a form of abuse, and I do not force a routine on my children.
Mine simply do not sleep in the bed with me.
I cannot speak for everyone..... ut please don't tar us with the same brush here, just because of joining in a discussion.

Hi everyone... I'm so sorry... I didn't mean to say anything against you all, just the way things were done in the 1950's, the principles practiced then... I agree with the feelings you all mention in this controversial ideas from CV. So I do apologise if I've gone and caused upset, honestly, I didn't intend that, so sorry everyone... I'm inclined to think, people on here do say, that we as parents, usually will know how we to best bring our youngsters up, and I do go with the general idea that each mother is in the best place to decide for her own children, which is brill... My biggest shock was finding that my parents had gone with a lot of CV's methods used today, and believe that using them, contributed to my own difficulties today, but when I thought that they'd done it that way cos of me... They'd simply followed a load of information, which made me ill possibly...
I just don't want any of you wonderful people on here being worried about whether your youngsters will have emotional problems when older, and perhaps blaming yourselves for it...
Parenting is the most important job in the world, and yet the one we ewnter the world with no reral training for, save the feelings we each hold about the ways our own parents brought us up... It all gets scary, but it's all worth it in the end, they don't stay monsters for ever! On balance, all kids are brill, well most of the time anyway!