olivegreen, i love your attitude and advice you have given on all replys on all topics and think it is fantastic that you continue to bf your son, he is very lucky to have an understanding and loving mother like you!
It is such a shame I rarely get to meet likeminded mothers like you!

Barbie I am afraid what you say about bf and 6 months just is not scientific. A child's immune system is not fully developed until they are around two years old, hence the World Health Orgs. recommendation for all children to be bf at least to that age. This recommendation is often incorrectly attributed to poorer countries. In fact WHO recommneds it for all children.

Of course it is only a recommendation. No one is forced to do it, sadly though it is very convenient excuse for the companies that produce formula to try and convince us with myths that babies only need breastmilk until they are 6 months old.

I think it was sassberry who posted an excellent comparison between the components in breastmilk vs formula. Breastmilk contains live cells that adapt to the needs of the baby. This does not end at some arbitary date, i.e. when the baby becomes 6 months old !

There is well-documenetd evidence that children who are breastfed for at least 2 years are generally healthier, less frequently sick and less likley to require medication/hospitalisation than their formula fed friends.

Leaving the physical well-being to one side, bf is not just a means of providing food. So yes, it is agreed that beyond 6 months to 1 year (there are babies who are bf exclusivley for a year in some countries without requiring solids) babies do need a variety of foods containing protein, minerals, vits, etc, esp. iron. Iron and Vit D can become a little deficient in the mother's milk after 6 months, so it is generally recommended in some countries that babies are given these as drops or naturally through solids and sunshine.

Exposure to 30 mins. of sunshine per week is all that a healthy bf baby needs so that he does not become Vit D deficient. Vit D is added to formula milk, but you don't need to have formula in a bottle to acquire essential vits and minerals, it can be done naturally through the baby's diet and quite a lot of it will still be present in breastmilk even after 6 months.

Beyond food, there is evidence that babies who are bf beyond 6 months are easier to soothe and comfort, less likley to have severe tantrums, and form a very strong physical bond with their mothers. They are more confident and less "needy" or "clingy" because their needs have been met. These are psychological benefits that are not easy to quantify, but there is research out there.

As for IQ and intelligence, I have read many studies that indicate the longer a child is bf, the higher their social and emotional intelligence and the higher their IQ. In fact in some countries where there is a great deal of poverty, the length of bf has been linked to increased social mobility (i.e. Brazil) so the longer a child is bf the more likely he is to increase his chances of escaping poverty as an adult.

Length of bf has also been shown to benefit a child well beyond childhood, so it has been shown that adults who have been bf for long periods of time tend to have lower cholestrol levels, good blood pressure levels, less heart disease, less diebeties, and are far less likley to become obese as children or adults.

clrcbr - you embarrass me with your kind comments

You too - you sound like a lovely mum in fact I am happy to have met so many lovely mums and dads here for the past couple of weeks - it gives me lots of hope in humanity and makes me happy ; )

Hi Olivegreen - I too have been reading your very informative posts! My son is 6 months old and I almost stopped bf'ing because I was worried I didn;t have enough milk, however I have continued and he is now 7 months. I have to express it most of the time as he thinks I am a teething ring! However he is still getting the benefits so I am peased with that. Have you heard of Breat-tea - I got some and it is amazing to increase milk supply - it is a selection of herbs, used by indiginous people and it imporves the levels and quality. I intend to keep going as long as I can!

Kind regards

Louise x

Lou A, you could also try lots of skin to skin with your baby. Not just a lovely way to bond but it increases your milk supply better than any other way.
I picked this info up at my local bf support group. I see a few people have got these groups nearby although some of you haven't which is a real shame. If it wasn't for a lady from the group coming to my ante natal class on feeding I don't think I would have tried so hard to bf. I went to an ante natal class with my daughter when she was 4 months to show the expectant mums that she is happy, healthy bf bubba and we are both normal!! I am sorry to say I don't think any of them were 100% convinced that breast is best. What a shame.
I wish that the sight of bf mother wasn't such a rarity, with the exception of the bf group I have only seen a mum bf once or twice out and about.
It does annoy me when mothers try to make excuses for not bf, just as CV last week saying that some women can't bf as they are only a size 6/8 - what a load of rubbish!! If you don't want to bf then fine but don't use the my breasts are too small excuse as your body will produce enough milk for baby no matter what size you are. Thats the beauty of bf and the amazing human body. Its the most natural thing in the world and people who tut and sneer about mums feeding in public are disgraceful. I was annoyed at the 2 mentors having a pop at Claire about bf in public on the show. Some women get their breasts out at every opportunity - page 3, beaches, strippers!! No-one says anything about them, but try to feed your baby outside and all hell breaks loose - thats Britain for you!!

claire - that is sweet - you "demonstrating" a feed for other mums ! Also it is true that the size of mum and her breasts don't make a damned difference to bf. I have a friend who is skinny as a match stick, she gave birth on all fours in her bathroom (the midwife arrived late !), has been bf with small breasts for over 3 years !

I have huge ones, 38 DD, but neither of us has had an advantage or disadvantage, we just fed on demand and there was never a milk supply issue. Actually I would say if your breasts are on the large size you need more help initially to get a good latch.

CV talks a lot of b*****s !

If skinny women couldn't breastfeed, there'd be no skinny women. The gene for that would've been eliminated from the pool a long time ago.
There are just so many myths being banded about. It does make me cross when I meet mums who have given up when infact nothing was wrong at all, they were just misinformed.

For example one lady I met used to top up at the end of a feed. She believed her breasts were empty as they no longer felt full after feeding for a few minutes, actually that's when the higher fat milk is available. It's made while you are feeding. Baby got nipple confusion though and soon gave up. If health visitors had the resources they could help more, or at least point mums in the direction of counsellors.

Well I tried olivegreen, I think it just made the daddys a bit embarrassed! The mw wasn't going to let me feed in private though she said if they had an issue about baby being bf then that was their problem! It made all the difference to me, meeting a bf mummy when I was pg. She was normal and down to earth - I think until you are a mummy you have little contact with anyone bf so it sounds silly but I thought that everyone who bf must be a earth mother hippy type! Ha ha how funny now that I am still bf nearly 7 months later, and have not become a hippy! Amazing! lol
I too am blessed with 38DD since the birth of my daughter and I would agree that on occasions when I have been away from her (left her with expressed milk of course!) but when I got back and breasts are full and large it is harder to get her latched on. I was appalled to hear CV on the show saying that some women just can't do it - its nonsense, they are just trying to make themselves feel less guilty for not doing it. I wouldn't mind but this woman has never had any children of her own so how she claims to be an expert I will never know!
I must say it is pleasing to see so many bf mums on here, thank goodness there are still some around with all the negativity on tv etc. Nothing against bottle feeders but theres nothing more rewarding than 1) seeing you baby growing and happy knowing you fed them yourself and 2) seeing the list of benefits from the hv with each month that passes knowing that you are helping protect your child from illness.
I know people will say to the contrary but we had no trouble with my daughter and colic and at nearly 7 months she has just had her first sniffle which I am pleased to say did not develop into a full blown cold and after a couple of days seems to be clearing up.
BREAST IS BEST i don't care what anyone says!!

Bless you guys - thanks for the advice. I do try and let him suckle but at 7 months there are just far too many new experiences to try - feeding is sooooo last month from his point of view! I think the advice from the NHS is so misleading and inaccruate - I haven't been to the doctors once with him, and I wouldn;t go - te health visitor advice if you have a problem with BF is use formula (not saying they all do this, just ours!) but they seem very ill informed on bf'ing issues.

Anyway, it is lovely to chat. i think we all feel the same way - we would love to heal the world - ubfortunately I don;t think the world is ready to listen yet.

xx

What never ceases to amaze me is how territorial women get over breast feeding. It's obvious that this is only because peple are so alien about it and I seriously think bf sends you a bit loopy with all the hormones produced!! You're all quite clearly insane.

I loved the fact that it was pointed out that it is ILLEGAL to stop a women bf in public. Hence touch if it makes you sick whilst you're eating. Personnally, although I found bf at the dinner table quite easy with no.1, sadly my boobs have headed too far south to contemplate 1 handed feeding anymore. I did consider surgery but apparantly unless I wanted to enlarge them, it might cause scarring. Shame.

I agree with whoever said that this country is anti-children. This is the place that the phrase "children should be seen but not heard" originates is it not???

I read somewhere that bmilk is magic. What other way is there to adapt exactly to your baby and produce a personal formulation that provides exactly the right antibodies, fattening agents, energy sugars etc that is effectively catering for a moving target? Science has not advanced that far yet, hence, I don't think there can be any doubt that breast is obviously the best way forward. I

Hi, it's great to hear everyone's view on bf, when I was pg with my first, I didn't know if I was going to bf or not - even at 30 I was a bit scared of it!! But Charlie basically lead me!!! He just latched on straight away and it felt perfectly natural. I only bf for 3 months though - I caught a very bad cold and my milk looked like dirty dishwater when I expressed I just thought 'that can't be very nice' and I put him on formula. For someone who was unsure about bf in the first place I felt that 3 months wasn't too bad.

I can see all the benefits for bf for longer, but I can say that my Charlie is a) very intelligent b) very contended and c) very robust and healthy. He didn't suffer for only bf for 3 months. The only problem I have is at the moment he has recently started hitting if he doesn't get what he wants.

I've just had my second - a little girl one week old, she's not quite as easy on the bf and I'm having to learn how to do it!! I'm not gonna set myself any time on how long I'll bf for - just see how it goes.

"You're all quite clearly insane." abi, you are right, I have been told I am a bit mad, for lots of different reasons : )

Yeah horray for us insane bf mothers!!
Lets hope we all pass our insane genes onto our future generations and see just how insane we were in 50years time!

olivegreen: I didn't say breastfeeding wasn't any more beneficial after 6 months, just that in terms of fighting illness it isn't MASSIVELY more beneficial at this point. It is more beneficial than formula still but the difference between the two becomes less significant past this point

Childrens immune systems aren't fully developed until the age of 5, but few would breastfeed this late

It's also all relative: some women's milk just doesn't contain the nutrients needed, in which case formula is better

I think women should be encouraged to try breastfeeding but not be looked down on if they don't or told they're giving their baby a bad start in life. Although breastfeeding GENERALLY leads to a healthier child and adult, its not a hard and fast rule: I was breastfed for two years but get ill quite a lot; people I know who have been formula fed never get ill

I do despair over many of the inaccuracies shown on TV, written in the press and posted on forums with regards to 'human milk', 'breastfeeding' etc etc and I stand firm that this is down to a lack of education on the subject and a failure of health professionals themselves to keep upto date on the latest research developments which therefore results in inaccurate information being disseminated to the public - Barbie86's post being partially incorrect is a prime example of this.
Olive, Moogey, DrewM, gabyd, Isaacsmum - apologies to anyone I've missed, its difficult to remember all the names! - are obviously keeping themselves abreast (lol pardon the pun)
of research regarding the issue.
Any mother should seriously consider pumping their own milk to feed their infant if actual feeding at the breast is unsuccessful rather than resort to formula. Many health problems associated with artificial feeding often only rear their ugly heads years down the line;
eg, research tests on older children and teens who were breastfed as infants have shown that they have lower blood pressure than formula fed peers, reducing the risk of associated health problems, also findings showed the impact of breastfeeding on blood pressure also appeared to be more marked the longer the duration of breastfeeding - obviously it ought to be common sense to continue to raise a child on healthy food once breastmilk has ceased!

Info from BBC health:
Writing in the Lancet, Dr Atul Singhal, who led the study, said: "Our findings suggest that breast milk feeding has a major beneficial effect on long-term cardiovascular health".

The team suggest that this could be because breast-fed babies grow more slowly than those who are bottle-fed.

Rapid early growth "programmes" a baby's biology, they said, making it prone to certain health conditions which increase the risk of developing heart disease and stroke, including obesity, high blood pressure, high cholesterol and a tendency to diabetes.

Professor Alan Lucas, director of the Medical Research Council's Childhood Nutrition Research Centre, said: "The evidence is very strong and supports a clear message.

"Slower growth as a baby reduces the risk of heart disease and stroke in adult life, and the best way to achieve this is to breast-feed."

"Conversely, formula milk has been linked with a higher incidence of respiratory disease, high blood pressure, ear and urinary tract infections, diarrhoea and gastroenteritis."

"The study emphasises the need for increased public awareness that the factors leading to CHD (coronary heart disease) operate from early life."

Further studies have found that on average by the age of 8months that formula fed infants have consumed 30,000 more calories than those fed breastmilk, eqivalent to approx 120 mars bars! This research dates back to 1999:
(Riordan and Aerbach Breastfeeding & Human Lactation Jones and Bartlett 1999)
yet how many mothers are informed of specific research studies when it comes to making decisions on infant feeding?
Breastfed infants regulate their own individual appetites and growth patterns by feeding on demand, whereas formula fed infants are often fed according to instructions on the can - one size fits all!, and as we witnessed on BUB last night some are practically force fed (Claire Verity & twins) or switched to stronger fomula in order to fill their tiny stomachs to bursting point just so baby will sleep longer at night and not disturb the parents! This is absurd, it is known that overstretching the stomach leads to increased food intake and higher calorie load. Some mothers who lovingly encourage infants to finish the bottle because of a feeding guide on the can are unwittingly compounding obesity risk on top of the risk of formula use in itself increasing likelihood of obesity. Is it any wonder that we are seeing obesity in children as young as 3yrs when all the various factors are taken into consideration.
Tim Cole, one of the Millennium Cohort Study (MCS) research team and a professor at the Institute for Child Health, part of University College London, said: “It’s extremely important and indeed distinctly worrying that children as young as this are as fat as they are and getting fatter.

Being fat now, these children are more likely to be fat later.”

Cole added: “There are now young adults – and, increasingly, adolescents and even children – presenting with type II diabetes. These people are going to require medical input for the rest of their lives.”

'John Reilly, a professor of paediatric energy metabolism at Glasgow University, said that breast feeding could reduce the risk of a child becoming obese during the primary school years by between 20% and 30%.'

quote:

It's also all relative: some women's milk just doesn't contain the nutrients needed, in which case formula is better

Sorry barbie, I don't agree with that point at all, it isn't really based on science

Briefly, if it were true many bf babies would die of some sort of "deficiency" in the mum's milk, but such cases just don't exist. Interestingly the breastmilk of women living in near "starvation" have been analysed (Subsaharan Africa I think) and it was found that the mother's milk, though malnurished herself, had all the necessary components to bf her baby in order for the baby to survive (quite often the baby will survive the mother). Otheriwse the human race would have become extinct by now.

sorry sassberry we have just cross posted : )

Wow thanks sassberry! That info is great, v interesting ready and hopefully puts paid to some of the uncertainty going on! A brilliant post!

quote:

Originally posted by clairebear007:
Wow thanks sassberry! That info is great, v interesting ready and hopefully puts paid to some of the uncertainty going on! A brilliant post!

that should say interesting reading! Durr braincells killed by bf!

sassberry well done, as usual you post all the details with accurate refs. I am too lazy to dig them out, happy to do so if any one is interested though : )

Just to say that I am in no way involved in the health prof. or even in lactation, so please don't quote me on anything if you are bf, I am just a concerned mum and a bit of "pervert" for detail as an ex-lawyer ! We are almost as boring as accountants when it comes to detail : )

Good Lord, my daughter in law has breast fed both our grandchildren and does it proudly and really knows it is the most natural thing to do.
It is not expensive. It is the very best a baby can have, it doesnt fiil a baby to being so awfully full (last night on bringing up baby)that they are bloated and no wonder asleep through glutteny. Shame on that dreadful cruel childless woman i hope she is rich and lonely.
What is dreadful is that yesterday my daughter in law was turned away from a restaurant
because customers had to be 18-or over and she had a 3 week old baby with her ( who was naturally under 18). She wasnt breat feeding just meeting friends for a drink .!

Thanks Clairebear007 - are you a Heroes addict like me by any chance?

No worries Olive re cross posting , glad we're both up and at em in giving factual info rather than hearsay! Good u posted the info on nutrient content in Breastmilk, I've also read the research stating the breastmilk of mothers in famine hit areas has the required nutrient content necessary for her infants survival - in fact this is one of the reasons organisations such as Unicef, Save the Children, Oxfam, Christian Aid etc all advise against donations of infant formula in famine or disaster hit areas - as the use of formula in these situations actually increases illness and infant mortality.
The only instance that I've read about any nutrient deficiency in human milk has been in a strict vegan mother who did not follow a healthy vegan diet and the milk was deficient in vitamin B12, but even among vegans this is very rare and definitely does not indicate that vegans should turn to formula 'just in case' as there are vegan sources of B12 such as fortified yeast and supplements if necessary.
The routine use of soya formula milk has been called into question and it should not be contemplated at all unless a health professional advises otherwise. This is because of the phytoestrogens (isoflavone) which are in high levels in soya and also concern over the presence of genetically modified soya in some baby milk brands.
Phytoestrogens have oestrogenic properties, similar but less potent than the female hormone oestrogen.
Research has shown that infants receiving soya based formula are exposed to the equivalent level of phytoestrogens of several contraceptive pills per day (Irvine C et al, 1995).
American research (Setchell K et al, 1997) found that soya-based baby milks contained upto eleven times the amount of phytoestrogens known to cause changes to menstrual cycles. The study also measured levels of phytoestrogen in the plasma of four-month-old boys; in those babies consuming soya-based baby milk levels were 200 times higher than those consuming breast milk (levels in breast milk were found to be negligible). There are concerns that drinking soya-based infant formula could affect babies' reproductive development. Early onset menstruation and development in girls pre puberty is also being linked to phytoestrogens. Industrial waste from plastic production contains phthalates which also mimicks oestrogen, wildlife such as alligators and fish exposed to this waste has resulted in transgender reproductive and sexual organs in offspring. So whilst the jury's are still out over the safety of soya formula and its implications in long term human health, until more clinical evidence comes to light it is recommended that soya formula is avoided unless medically necessary. Specialised formulas based on amino acids do not contain any milk protein and are prescribed to infants who suffer from conditions such as galactosemia (these rare babies cannot digest human milk or standard formulas). Vegans clinically unable to breastfeed would be wise to discuss this type of formula with their health provider before opting for a soya formula. Similarly those with infants displaying intolerence to standard formulas should speak to a health provider for advice. (make sure your hp is upto speed with soya formula research.) Re-lactation can also be achieved with assistance from lactation specialists - speak to a breastfeeding organisation for advice - even mothers of adopted infants, with correct tuition, have been able to produce milk and breastfeed!

Human milk for human babies!