quote:

We desparately need more GP's, HV's and very importantly MIDWIVES who are the first point of contact with new mums to be well informed/trained. It is not good enough that people like me had to literally fumble in the dark, surfing the net at 2 am to find the answers.

I quite agree olivegreen, am frequently dismayed by Hps lack of knowledge or partial knowledge. They are also guilty of making assumptions, and saying what they think you want to hear, like sending you off with script for antibiotics when they know its a virus, cos they think that's what you want, when actually you want reassurance adnd an opewn door to come back if things don't get better. I have a v dear paediatrician friend of mine who actually has been known to say "I think it's my job to give women permission to stop breastfeeding." Oh really? Have you asked them if that's actually what they want? perhaps they want intensive support to help improve things. Perhaps telling them to stop will make them feel an absolute failure. Perhaps they are desperate to stop. Who knows. But HPs can be so influential that unless they establish the patients' agenda, engage with them, work with them, they can get it badly badly wrong and unintentionally massively undermine women. It's like someone else said on this forum, we can't pretend breastfeeding and formula feeding are equivalent just to spare peoples feelings. If HPs are giving out other public health messages they need to be giving out clear consistent good advice re breastfeeding - not just breast is best. That's like giving a leaner driver the keys to the car then wondering why they've crashed it.

"Perhaps telling them to stop will make them feel an absolute failure." Very true. I know for a fact that I was extremely depressed, in fact suicidal by day 4 when my son was still not latching on well and no one, but no one could tell me why ????? A friend came to the rescue and a few days later although I was now exhausted from the frequent night feeds, my baby was feeding well, he had regained his birth weight and more, I then became a happy, smiley woman again and was enjoying my baby for the first time since his birth. I would have become very seriously depressed if it hadn't worked for me.

The psychology of it all is very difficult to get to grips with and you are right no one knows how a mother will react to being told to stop or continue. So it is best for health profs. not to guess how the mother is feeling, be positive without being pushy and just make sure they have all the FACTS or if you don't know then make sure they can find out the facts somewhere very quickly.

A cousin of mine is a paedetrician. She stopped bf by handing her baby over to her mother for a week who formula fed the baby until she had presumably forgotton all about the breast. I thought it was an extremely cruel way of weaning the baby off the breast, a forced separation from the mother. I never discussed it with her but I found it very upsetting that someone who should know better did such a thing with her own baby when it really wasn't necessary.

Sorry forgot to add my cousin's baby was only 3 months old when she weaned her as described.

Thanks stheno

Your input as a GP is greatly appreciated and hope your affirmation of correct information on posts helps serve to amend the opinions of certain posters on this forum with regards to infant feeding matters.
Its a pleasure to encounter a GP (other than my own) who is highly knowledgeable and experienced in this area. My male GP encourages breastfeeding - he has 4 children who were all breastfed and said he wouldn't have it any other way! - and helped me overcome problems with mastitis and nipple thrush. I am aware many mothers give up with breastfeeding needlessly when a GP advises switching to formula over a problem that could have been resolved with appropriate advice and support. This goes to show that we need more GPs like yourself who keep upto date on infant health and feeding issues.
V pleased yourself and olive jogged my brain regarding vit D. I recall asking my sister when visiting her in Dubai 2005, (lucky beggar has lived in Qatar, Abu Dhabi & Dubai for 20yrs) why vit D was added to practically all the regular milk there. She explained that, ironically, although such a sunny place to live, some women, in particular arab nationals, both due to muslim dress code and intense heat meaning indoors is usually preferable to outdoors, are short of vitamin D, so the dept of health there try to counter this in the population by supplementing regular milk, also supplementing mothers and infants that need it. Apparently this approach has helped to reduce incidence of rickets in the area.
My sister has 4 children, 3 of whom were born at the Corniche hospital in Abu Dhabi and one (her 2nd)that was born in the UK. She found the difference in care and breastfeeding support phenonemal making her extremely thankful that her 1st child was born in Abu Dhabi meaning the excellent breastfeeding tuition she received there when getting to grips with the skill and overcome problems was invaluable when her 2nd was born in the UK and she was practically left to her own devices to get on with breastfeeding. There appears to be more support for midwives in the UAE with lactation consultants to hand on the wards to assist with feeding, bringing out equipment such as nipplettes for mothers with inverted or flat nipples to draw the nipple out and help the latch, nipple shields to help counteract any soreness and breastpumping for mums having problems with supply or infants with weak sucking reflex or cleft palate etc.
I can honestly say that had my sister not arrived at the hospital on day 2 after my sons birth to find and correct a blubbering hormonal wreck who was doing it all wrong then I may not have succeeded either. A sleepy infant suffering the effects of pethidine, (which I was virtually pressurized into having)2.5hrs of pushing out a chunky rather than long 8lb 10oz infant, 2nd degree tear then undone stitches & a 'gaping perinium' necessitating physio on the nether regions for swelling, nice!, a dysfunctional bladder - I could not pee for 3days!, and cracked bleeding nipples from newbie attempts does not make for an initially good breastfeeding relationship! The midwives were run off their feet and unable to devote much precious time to helping with breastfeeding - I lay the blame with the government and PCT's not the midwives (the UK has a shortage of approx 5000 midwives) for failing women with breastfeeding difficulties - not everyone is fortunate enough to have an experienced sister like mine on hand to help overcome problems, so pleased she & family were on leave in the UK at the time of Josephs birth. I would say it took a good 6 weeks to get happy with breastfeeding. On the funny side having an over zealous mother in law who thinks shes the be all and end all on child care, yet wrinkled her nose up at breastfeeding, defo provides one with some extra ammo to persevere, on top of the health benefits, feel sure to this day that she would have just muscled in and attempted a complete takeover had there been even a whiff of formula!

sassberry - you give an excellent example of a health system which is well-funded and well-informed to support bf. Women in the Middle East have been feeding their babies on the breast throughout history, just like women in the UK used to !

The difference is that most Govt. in the Middle East (ME) actively support the WHO and UNICEF recommendations. They also spend masses of money on their excellent health services. I have lived in several ME countries and just as you say the support to bf there is very different. The friend I mentioned above who helped my son and I is from the ME, she bf her two boys and was just the right person to help me.

Thank goodness that some of us were able to be helped by friends or relatives. The sad fact is the vast majoruty of women in the UK no longer have access to a pool of knowledgable WOMEN who have personal experience of bf and I am absoltuley certain that beyond the shortage of midwives and knowledgable health profs. the main resaon bf rates are so low here is due to women not have reasy access to info. or accurate advice from friends or relatives.

Friends, family and husbands are just as likley to say "switch to formula" at the drop of a hat as our health profs. This is very difficult and really makes bf a nightmare to start with and unless you have the personality to tell them to go away and are really persistent in your own efforts to overcome those hurdles in the first few weeks, I can see how it very quickly leads down the path of formula feeding.

Oh and how ironic that these Muslim countries with strict dress codes have absolutley NO PROBLEM WITH PUBLIC BF ! I have done public bf in the Middle East and seen many women do so too without anyone ever batting an eye lid and this is in countries where public nudity of any sort is very taboo : )

Obvioulsy the need for a mum to feed her baby is acknowledged as utmost importance in some countries.

How absurd that in politically and economically advanced countries like England and Scotland we have to pass laws to protect women to bf in public ! Very strange indeed.

I just wanted to reply to this thread. I would have dearly liked to bf my daughter, and tried for 3 weeks to do so unsuccessfully. I was not producing enough milk for her. An experienced community midwife came round, she was a staunch supporter of bf, however on examining my daughter saw that she was underweight and dehydrated and told me to put her on formula which I did.

My daughter is 7 months old and thriving, I had to do what was best for her and that was formula, her health is paramount. Formula is not poison you know! I did try in addition to pump milk regularly, but my milk dried up quickly. I resent these breastfeeding dragons making me feel guilty because I don't bf.

At the time I was also under a lot of family stress, this can affect milk flow too. I would try bf with my next child, but will not hesitate putting her on formula if her health is being compromised.

As for bf in public, its the most natural thing in the world, that is why women have breasts, not for men's sexual pleasure. Tough if people don't like it!

Hi Pigletmania,

good luck with b/f your second child. I couldnt b/f my first due to medical reasons. I had a c-section and then my daughter was rushed to the cardic unit and I wasnt allowed to go with her due to the c-section. I tried to b/f her but my nipples bled, my daughter wanted more milk than I could give and she was separated from me. The m/w were terrible they called my baby bad tempered and said I could only bottle feed or b/f. Ive seen in an America b/f video that they use a tube to use formula milk to substitute b/f at the breast. This feeds the baby but also increases milk supply to the breast. I wish I had know about this sooner as I think b/f some as well as formula milk is better than all formula. Having said that my little girl is lovelly and she was fully formula fed. I succesfully managed to b/f my second child again following a c-section. Which made it a lot harder due to a longer delay in milk coming through.

Im getting better with b/f in public but someone in my local area had a bucket full of dirty water thrown over them and was then called a whore by a shopkeeper after she went up a side street to b/f.

I also had a middle aged lady tell me that b/f women are asking to be attacked by men.

I cant understand why you can get you breast out on the beach in a sexual manner but people are so offended by b/f women. I find it very offensive as I feel b/f or not that I am not valued as a mother only as a sexual being.

I think how people decide to feed their baby is up to them. People should be given the facts and be able to chose what is best for their own families needs.

As b/f dragons are as bad as anti b/f dragons.

thanks leafy1, hopefully secondtime round should be easier as i will know what to expect, and will not have as many visitors in the first few weeks so that i can concentrate on bf.

Do You know? I am sooooo sick of hearing "I couldn't breastfeed my baby"
Whilst I know something like 2% of women actually cant breastfeed, what the hell is going on with the rest?
I do believe that the most important thing is to get the right advice and be taught how to do it. The reason for this is because we have lost the natural skills through a few generations of bottle feeding.
Why cant women just admit they didnt want to or gave up too easily?
I got some good advice when I had my baby. But incorrect attachment in the first few days lead to a vicious circle of soarness getting worse with more feeding, hesitation when latching my baby on due to the soarness, thus leading to more soarness, and so on...
As I left hosp i was told to try a nipple shield for a few days. The first time I fed my beby at home she took two sucks and the shield had filled with blood.
It took 2 weks for things to improve and probably another month for it to be completely better. There were lots of white knuckle moments and a few tears (from me).
It has been completely worth it.
No bottles to make up and carry around, no formula to buy, no sterilising and the list goes on.
most of all, with just a little determination I KNOW that I have fed my baby the best possible thing for her health.
Can any bottle feeding parent truelly know this??
do they even know what is in their babys milk?
Breast IS best because it is the natural thing to do, before the manufaturers of formula advertised their products as "best for your baby" this fact wouldnt have even been questioned.
And what really makes me cringe is those parents who bottle feed their babies a completely man made product for the first 6 months of their lives and then insist on organic everything, slight contradiction!! They obviously are trying to compensate for something, and quite honestly, they should.

Why do we do this to ourselves? Okay breastfeeding is the best thing you can do for your child under the right circumstances. Many mothers struggle to breastfeed and give up, this is usually not their fault. A friend of mine was intent on breastfeeding but couldn't get her son to latch on properly, rather than giving her advice the midwife told her to give him a bottle as his crying was keeping the other mothers and babies awake. This is not her fault, had she had the right support and advice she would probably have breast fed successfully.

I personally didn't have a problem and successfully breastfed my daughter until she was 9 months old, I would have continued longer but had to have an operation and couldn't feed for 24 hours due to the anesthetic, when I recommenced feeding my daughter just wasn't interested.

Both my nieces were bottle fed, my sister just couldn't face breastfeeding, the reason for this is that she had been sexually assaulted as a child and for whatever reason wasn't comfortable doing so. This is not her fault and both children are happy and healthy.

The point I'm trying to make is that, yes if you can breastfeed then thats great and your doing a good job, if you can't then you shouldn't be made to feel guilty about it. It's easy for a breastfeeding mother to condemn others for not doing so, but you should consider yourself lucky that you had the right advice, support and anatomy to enable you to do so, not everyone is so lucky!

There is a whole lot more to being a good parent than feeding.

im jus expectin my 1st child n wud love to breast feed but theres alot of pressure off my mum to bottle feed, i dont really agree with puttin un natural products into a babys system, i wud love to be able to bond with my baby this way, why do some mums have to be right, her way might not be the right way for me.

Of course breast is beast.I would certainly try it again with my next child. I was not producing the milk that she needed, she was latching on and i saw she was getting milk from me, i had lots of support from health professionals, but in the end i had to make a decision as her health was being compromised. It has nothing at all to do with milk companies pressuring me, as a mother I have to do what is best at the time by my child, her health is paramount!

I am fed up of these breastfeeding militia making me feel bad because I do not breastfeed,, they can be so narrow minded! At first i felt guilty, but i have got over that, especially when i see my happy, healthy and thriving 7 month old daughter.

Yes it may be lack of support, but milk flow can also be influenced by genetics,diet, stress etc. Not all women produce the same amount of milk, my friend produced so much milk she was asked if she could store it at the milk bank in hospital when she was having her son (this was 23years ago). At the time of having my daughter I had a lot of family stress too, so that probably affected it too. If i were in a more calm and relaxed environment, I probably would have found it easier.

In the social circle I was in when my two were small, everyone breastfed, there was a lot of support. Until a friend's baby was born and she was found to be allergic to breastmilk.
This poor woman felt so guilty and upset and confused as to this happening, it's one of the rarest things in the world. If it hadn't been for formula (and some gluey stuff they ended up having to add to it) then the baby would have died. Still she felt she should have 'tried harder'.
So, much as I am an advocate of breastfeeding, I'd never make a judgement on anyone who is bottle feeding as you cannot always know the circumstances as to why they are doing it.
I used to look after my friend's baby when she returned to work, bottle feeding takes up all your hands. I feel a bit sorry for the mums who HAVE to do this, I used to enjoy a book or magazine when feeding my babies and the ability to open the door or get on with my cooking, can't do this when having to use a bottle.

Honeyzest

How dare you condem non b/f mothers. I cried when I gave up b/f my husband had to give our baby a bottle for a while as I was so upset. It was the best descision we made for the following reasons.

Both mine and my husbands parents are mentally ill. The only parenting advice I got from my mum is to 'leave a baby in its room and it eventally stops crying'. So no help there. I read loads of books and went on parenting courses to make up for the lack of family support and non-parenting that I had as a child. So dont you dare state that non b/f mothers dont care for their childs wellbeing.

My baby was sicking up loads of blood on her first nightof birth so I asked that she be placed in the nursery so a doctor could look over her. The next morning she was rushed to the cardac unit and I was then separated from her for a few days as I couldnt leave the maternity unit due to my c-section. Four doctors came to see me and my husband and explained my baby could die as her organs were shutting down. A big shock to us as our baby was 9.5 pounds in fact they had trouble fitting her into the incubator due to her size. The doctors went onto say that she needed major heart surgery and that she would be used as a guinea pig as even in the heart unit they only do one operation of that type a year. With about a 50/50 survival rate. I asked my husband to promise me that he would tell the doctors to have me fully sedated if our baby died as I wanted to kill myself so that I could be burried with her in my arms.

We were moved from the heart unit to the maternity unit at a different hospital so that we could recover and get some b/f help. However the m/w got fed up with my baby due to the problems we had encounted, called her bad tempered and then stormed off leaving me with a crying hungry baby. I saw the difference in care from those dealing with very sick or dying babies and their parents to the m/w at a simple birthing unit. Yeap they had the whats the problem with b/f attitude and whats the problem with you as a mother.

Luckily in my case things didint turn out as bad as the doctors supected and my daughter heart repaired itself. I got this news when she was 2.5 years old and I burst into tears.

Having seen sick babies where their hearts have stopped three or four times before their first birthday and having seen their stressed and traumatised parents. I think you are very ignorant to judge anybody in not b/f. I can tell you tramatised mothers dont make great b/f their milk decreases and they are too busy worrying about their child and talking to doctors. In fact I didnt eat or sleep for days.

As for me between my babies ill health, unsupportive even down right nasty nurses (although some were very supportive), the fact that my baby was used to drinking a full bottle of formula milk before I had even tried to latch her to my breast, the lack of family support and having undergone a c/section which delayed my milk meant that everything was going against mine and my daughters ability to b/f.

Maybe I was not clear enought when I said my nipples bled. My daughter almost chewed my nipples off. I still have scar tissue from where she sucked so deep into my flesh.

I actually phoned the B.f helpline and they told me I had done everything that I could to try and reestablish b/f and left it at that. I wish that they had told me to give up and switch to formula feeding. As my child was very unhappy for the first few weeks of life. firstly from the trauma of being separtated from me and then from not getting the amount of milk she was used to which had stretched her stomach.

If anyone out there has overcome so many obsticles and still manged to b/f let me know as I would be willing to listen to you.

Leafy1, that's one of the saddest things I've ever read, my heart goes out to you. I am actually tearful now.

I do hope everything is well with your daughter now. I think a few of our over-zealous breastfeeding mothers on here should take note of this story and maybe stop and think before rambling on about how breast is best.

We ALL know breast is best, if you want to condemn someone for "not trying hard enough" then condemn someone who simply never bothered despite being told what was the best for their baby, you don't know everyone's life story or reasons as to what's happened, this is a prime example.

Oh I forgot to add my husband hired a b/f coach at £100.00 a session for our second child. As we now realise b/f is a skill that needs to be learnt.

oranjeboom,

Thanks for you postal support to my story. Dont be sad for us, my little girls is lovelly and well. We are one of the lucky families my little girl recovered.

As for b/f or anything else for that matter the following is needed.

1) supportive family or friends
2) a good up bringing
3) spare money
4) relaxing home
5) comfortable up together home
6 )degree of intelligence
7) a well child or your own health


I sure I could add some more to the list. I think you need one or more of the above if you have none b/f is difficult if near not impossible and so is anything else in life for that matter.

I say this having been raised in a crazy, deprived enviroment by my parents.

I have no family support but I use money (my husbands has a wery well paid job) and my intelligence to improve on my own upbringing for my children.

So I still think its wrong to condem people who dont even try b/f.

I give an example why. Born to crazy parents (drug addicts, alcholics or mental illness) means no parenting skills or life skills, you develop negative or fatetalistc attitude to life. You are too busy learning what most people take for granted to develop or learn any new skills. What do I mean take for granted. My parents never showed me how to wash my clothes, make meals, (must join a cookery class next year), pay bills, make descions, help with my education (you might have noticed that with my spelling. I dont know how I got to Uni). You do not have any money to hire in help such as nannies or b/f coach. In order to overcome these issues.

I myself needed to hire a nanny to look after my first daughter so that I could concentrate on reading up on b/f and recover from my c/section. As I have no family help and my husband work means he is not here from 6.30 am till 9.30pm).

So please dont condem mothers for not b/f they may be too busy looking after their children in other ways. I certainly had b/f near end of my list when it came to raising my children. Too many other basic things to learn and not enough support.

I hope that my daughters do not have to learn these basic skills as they will already have them by the time they are grown up so for them maybe b/f might be a lot easier.

Hi there leafy1

How is your baby now! Is she better? Yes this is the point that I am trying to raise, that things like stress and trauma affect bf and milk production. Some of the bf militia on this site do not understand as they have not gone through it themselves, they seem to be very narrow minded. Everybody circumstances are different, and at the end of the day it is YOUR CHILD, not theirs, so you have to do what is best for you and your baby, and if that is giving the bottle then so be it.

I would rather a happy and healthy bottle fed baby, then an underweight, hungry baby that an over exhausted mother is trying to bf because she feels under pressure to succeed.

There are plenty of healthy adults who have been bottle fed, without any trauma to themselves, I rest my case!

quote:

The point I'm trying to make is that, yes if you can breastfeed then thats great and your doing a good job, if you can't then you shouldn't be made to feel guilty about it. "
There is a whole lot more to being a good parent than feeding.

Right - is there anyone here who thinks mums SHOULD 'be made' to feel guilty for not breastfeeding? No?

Do midwives and health visitors 'make' mothers feel guilty by talking about the benefits of breastfeeding? Or do mums just feel guilty when they can't breastfeed because - well, we all want our babies to have the best and if we don't have it in ourselves to give them this then we're going to feel guilty WHATEVER ANYONE ELSE SAYS OR DOES?

Please, can we stop with all the accusations that bf advocacy is responsible for all the negative feelings and sadness that women feel when they aren't able/don't wish to breastfeed. I just wish people would take responsibility for their own feelings.

quote:

Originally posted by leafy1:
oranjeboom,

Thanks for you postal support to my story. Dont be sad for us, my little girls is lovelly and well. We are one of the lucky families my little girl recovered.

As for b/f or anything else for that matter the following is needed.

1) supportive family or friends
2) a good up bringing
3) spare money
4) relaxing home
5) comfortable up together home
6 )degree of intelligence
7) a well child or your own health


I sure I could add some more to the list. I think you need one or more of the above if you have none b/f is difficult if near not impossible and so is anything else in life for that matter.
.

And yet, astonishingly, 98% of mothers in this country managed to do it before formula was invented! And today, the vast majority of mothers around the world who have no money, no property, no health care, no paid maternity leave and no education and large families, manage to breastfeed perfectly well, thankyou very much!

It's just in the West where well nourished, generally healthy mums with small families and an assured household income during the months following the birth of their children fail en masse to breastfeed.

Go figure!

Actually - there's no mystery. Where ever you find affordable formula that's enthusastically marketed you'll also find widespread breastfeeding failure. Go figure that one too!