pigletmania,

missed ur last post as I was already typing the next one!!

I think you're spot-on: you've looked at the reasons why, realistically, things didn't work out for you, and I'm glad you didn't say 'failed'. If my baby was dehydrated I would definitely have given him a bottle!!

I would say to anyone who feels they really must supplement with a bottle, but wants to continue bf: ALWAYS feed from (and empty) both breasts completely immediately before offering a bottle. Giving ANY ff can reduce the amount your baby takes at the breast, but this will give you a better chance of a quick return to exclusive bf.
It's worth remembering too that most babies who are getting enough milk from bf will also take a few ounces from a bottle if offered - this doesn't mean they're not getting enough during bf. Many mums with an adequate supply worry they are not producing enough - most of the ones I know worried about this at some point!

Some of my own personal worries were as follows: I couldn't get ANY at all by pumping, despite getting up at all different times (all through the night) to try and catch my 'hormone high' times. I didn't need to wear breast pads either as my boobs never leaked a drop. In fact, the only time I ever saw my own milk was when it dribbled from my baby's mouth. Also, since he drank really, really quickly, (it felt like having a Dyson attached to my nipple), he emptied both breasts in less that 20mins then spat me out! I worried myself sick about this for weeks, despite the fact that he gained weight really well from the start, but started to become less neurotic in time.

I also found my local bf group a brilliant help - other mums were way more help than anyone else. We all had worries that seemed huge at some point in time, but talking helped us all to put things into perspective. It can be hard to pluck up the confidence to 'turn up' at a bf group by yourself, but it's Sooooo worth it if it might give your baby the chance to feed on your precious breast milk for longer.

If this post helps any other mum realise that she CAN continue to bf for longer, then it's been worth boring the rest of you!!

Hi Jonnyandbump

Thanks for the great advice. I will see if there is a local bf support group around for next time. I would really love to bf, and really enjoyed it when i was feeding my daughter, the bonding expeirence was lovely. Now katie is eating a little more and a bit later i will probably cut the rice in a bottle.

I agree whole heartedly with all your comments. For some people encluding myself their is a lack of support when it comes to 'learning' how to bf. I will tell you all oe of the problems I encountered and see if this was normal practice.

My son was not feeding from me at all, My partner was advised to bring in my breast pump, and i would express, store the milk in the fridge while in hospital, and then feed him from a syringe or spoon when he damanded some milk.
I went ahead with it, as any mother whith a hungry baby would. But found myself, doubting if it was normal to be doing this.
Shouldn't they just have tried harder to help me feed? Was it just lack of staff??

I think you're right - they should probably have tried harder to help you feed!
Maybe it's possible they had good reason for asking you to do it this way, but surely they should have explained their reasons to you anyway!!
I think it's really hard to 'learn' bf when you're basically just left to get on with it on your lonesome - even mums that find it 'works' straight away could do with the reassurance that they're doing it right.
I hemorrhaged quite badly after the birth and wasn't able to feed until nearly two hours afterwards. When they stopped the bleeding and I tried to feed it was really difficult - I was shaking uncontrollably and couldn't even support him with my arms, as I had absolutely no strength - my muscles were like jelly!! I wasn't offered any help and ended up lying him on the bed and leaning over to 'dip' into his mouth. When I asked for help (because it really hurt) the midwife looked over, from feet away, and said he was latched on fine!!
I did go on to bf until returning to work when my baby reached 6 months. On my 2nd day at home I was visited by a (male!) midwife who spent ages showing me how to get him latched on properly - I was really, really determined to bf , but I'm still not sure I would have managed without his help.
During the fist weeks bf was great one day, then really difficult the next... but once things settled it became the most amazing, fulfilling thing, and I'm more proud of bf my baby than anything else I've achieved in my life!
My local bf group was a massive support.

I'll probably get slated for saying this, but bf babies seem to have a 'glow' to them that ff kids just don't have - I think I could spot them bf babies in a 'line up'.

I can't say that I could tell the diference between a child who is bf or ff just by looking at them. My experience from looking after babies for the last seven years is that the only thing that tells them apart (when they are away from parents Mother) is that they have very different temperaments. Not saying that one is worse than the other, but anyone who has cared for a great number of babies/children may agree with me.

Also, back to the thread, I think alot of it does boil down to determination and support from professionals and family and friends.
I don't like to sound as if i'm moaning alot about my experiences, but without having all of those, it is very very hard. I had a people in my immediate family telling me not to worry, give the baby a bottle. If he's hungry he needs milk. ( I knew deep down he would drink off me eventually, but people were not supporting me)
I also had two nephews who I wanted to explain bf too before my son was born and I was not in so many words, encouraged not to, I still to this day beleive they do not know that womens breasts actually produce milk!
There were all sorts of things complicating it.
As us women know, engorgement sets in, latching on becomes more painful....
But I carried on trying for a week, but wasn't getting anywhere.
I then used to get up every morning and express my milk for when he woke up, I would do this several times a day. So I could, a) try to keep my milk up and b) still let my sone have breast milk.
I must have been mad, but I wasn't. I just wanted the best for my baby boy.

quote:

Originally posted by johnny&bump:


I'll probably get slated for saying this, but bf babies seem to have a 'glow' to them that ff kids just don't have - I think I could spot them bf babies in a 'line up'.

No - I know what you mean. They have a different skin tone. It's hard to explain.

The other thing (and I will get slated for this) is that they tend to be better proportioned. FF babies seem to have bigger, fatter heads........ Maybe it's got something to do with jaw development or something. Or maybe it's to do with the way they lay fat down. FF babies' fat is laid down in a different way I think.

So let me get this right, bf babies have a 'glow' to them, so the other end of the scale is that formula fed babies have a dull complection, and they have fat heads too.
That's a lovely thing to say given the prevuous discussions.
Who wants' to be told they have a dull looking fat head child.

Actually I've come across many a mw who says they can tell by just looking.
The thing is cows bodies grow way faster than their brains. We are the opposite, our brains are far more complex and need a tailored food to help build that brain, the body grows at a slower healthier rate (as studies show breastfed babies grow slower and this can help prevent obesity and heart disease later on).
So human milk is designed for the type of growth a human being is designed to go through. We evolved that way and so has our milk.
Cows build body mass far quicker.
So you can expect babies fed something based on milk designed for an animal who puts on weight fast but the brain is slower to gain body weight faster too.
So many babies have been weaned because they were compared to "bonny" chubby formula fed babies, under the mistake and outdated idea that it's healthier.
Thank goodness the growth charts in the red books are changing to reflect normal healthy growth.
We should also think of breastfeeding as the norm, not that it's healthier. That's the top line, the optimum start. Anything else is below that line, inferior and risky. Not a path to be chosen but taken only if absolutely necessary.

I agree there, we need to see more in this country in the way of education and envolvement at a younger age, to explain that BF is just what nature intended.
I think alot of the problem with FF babies is that parents become a slave to the quantity of milk they take, how long they go between feeds etc. A BF baby has as much or as little as he/she needs. And will do so whenever they want it. I think a problem with FF babies is that often they are given more milk than their body needs, but it's there, so they take it.
Personally I still feed on demmand, even though I am FF. I did it with my son and he was very contented. I never felt the need to make follow the 'baby must take in 2.5 x there weight' in milk. A BF baby has what they need. BF is the best for baby. Anything else is just a close second.
Personally I feel that there should be a limit to the ammount of Formula milk available, and it should only be available in extreme circumstances, Some babies do need formula for health reasons. Maybe that is the way things will go.

quote:

Originally posted by Hysteria1983:
So let me get this right, bf babies have a 'glow' to them, so the other end of the scale is that formula fed babies have a dull complection, and they have fat heads too.
That's a lovely thing to say given the prevuous discussions.
Who wants' to be told they have a dull looking fat head child.

"Thank goodness the growth charts in the red books are changing to reflect normal healthy growth."

Hysteria,
I really didn't mean to insult ff babies, but I do think bf babies have a wee extra 'glow' about them. Although I'm very determined to bf my new baby (EDD March 2008), my principles would NEVER come before my babies health, and I would ff if necessary. Also, I'm sure everyone here will agree that ALL babies are lovable and gorgeous little bundles of joy!!

Gabby,
Thought I was going to pee myself laughing when I read your post, (I'm 5 months pregnant, so got a good excuse I suppose)! But like Moogy says, bf babies don't seem to put on as much weight as quickly as ff babies, and the fact that red book growth charts are based on ff babies has certainly put bf mums under pressure - it's good to see things changing!

For the record, my bf baby boy seemed to outstrip any ff baby - he had at least four double chins and three roles of fat at each wrist, (prior to starting to walk), and still has hands like shovels. I actually feel a bit freaked out when I look back at photos of that period, (which gets my partner raging mad), but I guess our babies come in all shapes and sizes!!

I breastfed both my children then switched to formula. My first daugher had a 'tonge tie' and bf was near impossible...I perseverd for as long as I could. I now have a second daughter (with a different partner) and breastfeeding her was much easier. I then had to put her onto formula for health reasons. The whole debate about bf v ff babies is ridiculous I think....my first daughter was ff much more than my second daughter was but my second daughter has a much bigger head than my first.....I think the way your baby looks is down to genes.....nothing else...sorry!!!

They are starting to deal with tongue tie better now as this is a common issue (I had a wonderful friend who expressed for her tongue tie daughter, she was exclusively on breastmilk for 6 months) and if dealt with early enough then Mum can breastfeed. It used to be that midwives could sort the tongue tie, then only certain people could do it and it involved travelling miles. Where I live they are now letting midwives deal with them again. This will hopefully improve rates further!

I saw a program on the old goggle box where a tongue tied baby had the 'op' done in about a second. I use the term loosely, as it was literally a little snip with no pain relief. I felt so sorry for the little tot, but he seemed ok and was back on the breast within seconds. Bless him.

As for the expressing, it's good going to do that for six months, I did it for several weeks, but as my son wasn't a big feeder, i seemed to dry up very quickly. I wish I had known about this site before as I have read so much good advice on here about BF.
I had a horrible midwife who wouldn't let me use creams, sheilds, or even hold my son any other way than she told me. I had an awful experience, which with all the other problems I was having, all the emotional problems I was having because of her didn't help. I wish I had followed the advice more from family and friends.
At the end of the day, they are the ones who are syill there to give you the help you need after those '10' lovely days you have with your midwife. Or in my case, 10 days of torture.
Unfortunatly I only fed my daughter twice, and although I could feel deep down I may have been able to feed her better, all my bad experiences came flooding back. I have tried hard to not let it get to me though, as I feel being unable to BF my son was what contrubuted to my post natal depression. All I try to tell myself is that she is happy.

I would like to say that all the wonderful advice on here is so good. I hope that, if/when I have a third that I can count on a website like this for such a good support network.

As for talking about FF and big heads, my little ones dad has a hugehead, so they do look out of proportion, but you also have to bear in mind that by the time a baby reaches 12 weeks old, thier eyes do not grow anymore. That is it, they will be the same size from then on. So I suppose that they all need a big head.... for those beautiful big eyes they all have.

Hysteria says: "my experience from looking after babies for the last seven years is that the only thing that tells them apart (when they are away from parents Mother) is that they have very different temperaments. Not saying that one is worse than the other, but anyone who has cared for a great number of babies/children may agree with me."

That is very interesting. I don't wish to get into the murky waters of skin tone, looks or body fat , but do you think that perhaps excl bf babies/toddlers have different behaviour, etc because bf babies/toddlers are sick less often ? I have often wondered about that. Let's face it even as adults we get cranky and moody whenever we get sick. The less often we are sick the nicer we feel about life, I am sure the same is true of babies/toddlers ?

The last Red Book chart I saw was the one given to me when my son was born 3 and half years ago. Needless to say, I always ignored it and even confronted my MW with a copy of my old WHO chart at the time who promptly poopooed it when asked why the NHS wasn't/isn't giving these out to bf mums .

My son has only ever been on 25th centile since birth, slightly higher on WHO chart. He looked a real porker though until he was 6 months old and excl bf and then started to look slimmer as he got more active at around 8 months to one year. I have read this is perfectly normal for excl bf babies. They tend to put on more weight than excl. ff babies in the first six months and then this gets reversed, so the ff babies get heavier after 6 months.

I have seen ff babies of 3 or 4 months who looked tiny compared to podgy 3 or 4 month old excl bf babies. I am not saying this is always the case, but I have noticed the real weight differences between excl. bf babies and excl. ff babies begins to show after the first 6 months, as the ff ones tend to gain weight much more rapidly after 6 months.

How has the Red Book chart changed ? Don't tell me (shock, horror) they have actually incorporated the new WHO chart released I think last year for excl. bf babies (and bf for up to one year) ?

quote:

Originally posted by olivegreen:
do you think that perhaps excl bf babies/toddlers have different behaviour, etc because bf babies/toddlers are sick less often ? I have often wondered about that. Let's face it even as adults we get cranky and moody whenever we get sick. The less often we are sick the nicer we feel about life, I am sure the same is true of babies/toddlers ?

Perhaps someone should do a study?

Though seriously I think behaviour is so multifactorial I think it would be hard to see an association between the number of childhood illnesses and child behaviour. But I would be interested to see a study.

One thing we do know has a massive effect on childhood illnesses is birth order because the number of viruses child 2/3/4 is exposed to is so much greater. Breastfeeding these children is important because it will make ameliorate the severity of childhood illnesses but it's sometimes feels like a drop in the ocean, particularly because of the innoculating sibling effect (ie having a snotty sibling kissing your baby 24/7 exposes your baby to a much higher viral load than a passing sneeze from a toddler at playgroup)

But I've always been a big fan of snotty noses. Researcgh also shows that the greater the number of "snotty nose infections" a baby has under 2 years, thew less the incidence of asthma. That's one of the reasons that asthma has a higher incidence in first borns. I am banking on this effect to protect my younger 2 from inheriting my asthma as they had snotty noses continuously for their first 3years and where Bf 19m and 30m respectively.

But THEN, I personally had all the protective factors when it came to asthma: last-borne, bf for 1.5 years (I think), grew up in country eating dirt and hanging out with farm animals, no family history and I STILL end up with asthma. Perhaps I can lay the blame at early weaning, or maybe my dad's not my dad (eek!) or maybe I just drew the short statistical straw.

I guess this is problem with research and statistics, that there are always individual exceptions (like my beloved aunt who bf 3 children and died 8 years ago of breast cancer - though bf does have a protective effect, it's actually pretty small, tho'still another piece of research that made me determined to bf all my kids)

PLease excuse last post, now I read it am ashamed of my shocking spelling and pompous rambling!!

In the past month, 2 new babies at my toddlers group have had tongue ties sorted quickly and continued to bf successfully - this was carried out at the local hospital, (I live just outside Glasgow).

I think it's almost impossible to judge behavioral differences between bf and ff children, as there are just so many other factors that can have an impact. However, I'd like to see a study done in case there are striking differences, (Jamie Oliver's impact on kids eating school dinners springs to mind). Also, I think I've heard something about Sweden having much lower hospital admissions for older kids since bf increased dramatically as a direct result of improved health - no idea where this came from: would be interested if anyone can set me straight.

In addition to bf, I try not to be 'too clean' - it's important for our toddlers to come into contact with germs to help build their immunity !!

A wee point that some of you might not be aware of: did you know that using antibacterial handwash isn't a good idea? ...it's because it kills the 'good' bacteria on your hands which offer natural protection against some dangerous 'bad' bacteria (as well as the bad ones). This is similar to using those yoghurt drinks that contain good bacteria that are essential for a healthy gut (ie they kill off bad bacteria that cause gut problems). Also, thats why you often get thrush after a course of antibiotics - these kill off both good and bad bacteria so that you don't have the same natural protection that stops thrush growing.

Didn't really mean to go into that so much...

I think all our babies are individual - my baby boy had really bad colic (approx 2-6pm daily) despite the fact that it's less common in boys that girls, and that he was bf. I looked at hundreds of stuff on the internet and worried that he wasn't taking a full feed from one breast, before looking for the next one (too much foremilk), but nothing seemed to make any difference. I did make sure I still went to bf group, toddlers group and out for lunch, (for both our sakes), but it was really difficult sometimes. It was actually quite reassuring when the midwife who ran the bf group couldn't stop him crying (not just me!!)

I'd like to know if anyone has some good info on bf babies with colic - I'm a bit worried as no2 bambino is due in March and would love to avoid this baby suffering the same way as my first for 12wks. I did try colocxynth granules (spelling bad), infacol and a couple of other things, but I'm not sure how much difference any of these made - the only thing that made any impact was putting him in a baby swing).

Don't know if maybe he just fed way too quickly, or I'va also heard that 'reflux' could be the cause (despite the fact he didn't vomit), any info would be well appreciated!!

Thanks everyone for posting about 'tongue tie' - do you know that it was only when I got home from hospital (after 4 days) that my MW told me that my daughter had this condition! This was after my tears and distress in the ward trying to feed my daughter....needless to say that it was a relief to find out why it was hurting so much and why my daughter was having such difficulty. She is now seven and I was advised to leave it till she got older. It has never caused her any problems.....unitl now...she is suffering from recurrent mouth ulcers and is sometimes in a great deal of pain so am taking her to the doctor this week....had I known then what I know now I would have asked for this to be sorted a long time ago!!

In reply to olive green, I can only compare the health benefits of bf and ff on my own experiences, and personally, as bad as it sounds, I have only ever had close contact with two bf babies, both girls. I know that may sound bad, but not many of my friends are having babies yet. And lookinf at them both, one was a really healty child, and the other was always, ill like my son. Colds, ear infections, etc. But they both attended the same nursery. Whereas, my other friend, her daughter attended a different nursery. So maybe, there were more germs at the nursery my son went with.
So I cannot disagree with you, as I have not got enough information too.
I will say that the children I have cared for at the nursery who were BF, all tolerated illness better, and were able to fight, and get over illness quicker. But They were never exempt from the circle of germs that were ever present.

quote:

Originally posted by karen999:
It has never caused her any problems.....unitl now...she is suffering from recurrent mouth ulcers and is sometimes in a great deal of pain so am taking her to the doctor this week....had I known then what I know now I would have asked for this to be sorted a long time ago!!

Have you tried giving your daughter an SLS free toothpaste at all? There's something called sodium lauryl/laureth sulphate that's used in everything from floor cleaner to toothpaste. It's a rather harsh cleaner.
My husband suffered from recurrent mouth ulcers and found switching to a toothpaste without sls helped alot. Green people are great, halo and horns (easier to find, most supermarkets stock them) do one too. B vitamins and zinc could help too.