I can't reply too so I'll make a few comments here instead.

"I fed ashton 4 hourly" and "I didn’t want to breast feed (I know its best for baby a good on all you mums that can do it I tried with ashton but didn’t produce enough milk I still feel guilty now)"

I think you'll find the two are related! Also just because you felt you couldn't with one baby doesn't mean you will have the same experience with the next child. It's very rare to have a medical reason for not being able to feed, it's often down to not understanding the process and scheduling etc. You very likely could've fed had you followed something like spock or continuum or shock horro anc tually just responded to the baby's cues. Newborns give out quite a few signs before the crying stage to show they are hungry. Certainly more often than every 4 hours!

"I believe in controlled crying "

Why? Have you not read or taken noticed of all the evidence that proves it can cause harm? All though it's common sense really if you put yourself in your baby's place you should realise how scary it is for them.

"Just to assure all who have been worried about mia and her future mental health "

at 11 months you can hardly judge yet. We are talking decades. You seriously need foresight in this job. Just because a baby screamed alone for hours one night and seems fine the next is not an indication of their wellbeing.

Beautifully put Moogy.

Continuam Momma

"I believe controlled crying is child abuse"

I have to say that I do not agree with you. How can you say this is child abuse? Fair enough if the child is being left to cry for hours and hours but this is not the way that controlled crying works. You only leave them for 5/10 minutes at a time - go in check, settle them and come out. Believe me I started this method when baby number 2 came along and after the third night she went down with no crying. She is now eight months and she sleeps 7-7. She is a very happy little girl, especially during the day and i put this down to the fact that she is sleeping for 12 hours a night.

I used this method because my seven year old daughter still has trouble falling to sleep and hates going to bed. I followed the 70's method first time round and it was completely useless.

Routines and structure is beneficial for any child - it does give them security and to suggest that people who follow this idea are guilty of 'child abuse' is ludicrous.

My baby gets a story last thing at night before she goes to sleep - she is wide awake - I read to her and before the light goes out I get a big smile. I leave the room and I never hear a peep out of her till the next day. So, does this make my guilty of child abuse??.....I used controlled crying for three nights (never leaving her for more than 5 minutes and the first night she cried for a total of 25 minutes....with me going in every 5 minutes....the second night she cried for 15 and the third night she cried for 5)

I do not think I am guilty of child abuse.....I have merely taught her good sleep associations.

quote:

Originally posted by karen999:
Continuam Momma

"I believe controlled crying is child abuse"

I have to say that I do not agree with you. How can you say this is child abuse? Fair enough if the child is being left to cry for hours and hours but this is not the way that controlled crying works. You only leave them for 5/10 minutes at a time - go in check, settle them and come out. Believe me I started this method when baby number 2 came along and after the third night she went down with no crying. She is now eight months and she sleeps 7-7. She is a very happy little girl, especially during the day and i put this down to the fact that she is sleeping for 12 hours a night.

I used this method because my seven year old daughter still has trouble falling to sleep and hates going to bed. I followed the 70's method first time round and it was completely useless.

Routines and structure is beneficial for any child - it does give them security and to suggest that people who follow this idea are guilty of 'child abuse' is ludicrous.

My baby gets a story last thing at night before she goes to sleep - she is wide awake - I read to her and before the light goes out I get a big smile. I leave the room and I never hear a peep out of her till the next day. So, does this make my guilty of child abuse??.....I used controlled crying for three nights (never leaving her for more than 5 minutes and the first night she cried for a total of 25 minutes....with me going in every 5 minutes....the second night she cried for 15 and the third night she cried for 5)

I do not think I am guilty of child abuse.....I have merely taught her good sleep associations.

It is not normal or natural to ever leave a baby crying. Ever. Not even for one minute.
They learn sleep patterns from example, not by leaving them crying. How many sleepless and disturbed nights have you had? I've had this many - NONE.
I've also never dealt with the following :
Night terrors
Tears before bedtime
Excuses to stay awake for any reason

How very strange. And all from never reading any stupid 'childcare' books.

Abuse is causing harm. It's been found controlled crying can be harmful, the distress caused triggers off various reactions in the body and can cause permanent damage. The brain is developing and sensitive to such things, they can leave a lasting negative impression. I know to an adult it can seem absurd as to why a baby would be stressed when you are just outside the door, "will only be 10 minutes" etc. But to that baby they don't know that! Newborns don't even realise you still exist if they can't see you and their concept of time is very different to ours. They have no memories, no life experience to realise they are safe. They are not in harms way or vunerable to a predator but innate feelings tell them if left alone they are in danger.

Infant mental health associations around the world do warn parents not to do anykind of sleep training involving leaving them to cry.
What annoys me too is it's not necessary, there are many other ways to deal with this. Causing a baby stress, and causing them to question their trust in you is not worth the results when you could try other things. Or just relax and accept it as natural, normal they all get there in the end without taking this risk.
Stop seeing things from the parents' point of view, success for you may not be beneficial for the child. No matter what you tell yourself.

Actually what Verity does is NOT controlled crying at all. It is UNCONTROLLED crying. Controlled crying is where you go in to check the baby/child every few mins. and never allow a baby/child to cry for more than 15 mins. What we are witnessing on this programme is crying for much much longer than 15 mins. without proper checks to see if the baby is actually ok, and then letting the baby cry until it is TOO TIRED to continue and falls asleep from sheer exhaustion.

I am not an advocate of either controlled or uncontrolled crying. Allowing a baby a few days or a few weeks or a few months old to CRY ITSELF TO SLEEP from exhaustion is child cruelty. There is absolutely no doubt about that.

quote:

Originally posted by karen999:
Continuam Momma

"I believe controlled crying is child abuse"

I have to say that I do not agree with you. How can you say this is child abuse? Fair enough if the child is being left to cry for hours and hours but this is not the way that controlled crying works. You only leave them for 5/10 minutes at a time - go in check, settle them and come out. Believe me I started this method when baby number 2 came along and after the third night she went down with no crying. She is now eight months and she sleeps 7-7. She is a very happy little girl, especially during the day and i put this down to the fact that she is sleeping for 12 hours a night.

I used this method because my seven year old daughter still has trouble falling to sleep and hates going to bed. I followed the 70's method first time round and it was completely useless.

Routines and structure is beneficial for any child - it does give them security and to suggest that people who follow this idea are guilty of 'child abuse' is ludicrous.

My baby gets a story last thing at night before she goes to sleep - she is wide awake - I read to her and before the light goes out I get a big smile. I leave the room and I never hear a peep out of her till the next day. So, does this make my guilty of child abuse??.....I used controlled crying for three nights (never leaving her for more than 5 minutes and the first night she cried for a total of 25 minutes....with me going in every 5 minutes....the second night she cried for 15 and the third night she cried for 5)

I do not think I am guilty of child abuse.....I have merely taught her good sleep associations.

Firstly, you have no taught her good sleep associations, you have taught her that there is no point crying because you won't respond. Babies learn this lesson very quickly. In your case, it took her three nights to realise that she was wasting her time crying out to you. FOr a baby and small child time has no meaning, to be scared and alone and crying for 5 minutes is the same to them as being scared alone and crying for 2 minutes, or 10, or 15, or an hour. I don't ever dispute that Controlled Crying works, what I dispute is what lesson these babies actually learn. I want mine to know that if they call for me, I will be there.

Harvard University released this study some time ago;

"Children Need Touching and Attention, Harvard Researchers Say
By Alvin Powell

Contributing Writer

America's "let them cry" attitude toward children may lead to more fears and tears among adults, according to two Harvard Medical School researchers.

Instead of letting infants cry, American parents should keep their babies close, console them when they cry, and bring them to bed with them, where they'll feel safe, according to Michael L. Commons and Patrice M. Miller, researchers at the Medical School's Department of Psychiatry.

The pair examined childrearing practices here and in other cultures and say the widespread American practice of putting babies in separate beds -- even separate rooms -- and not responding quickly to their cries may lead to incidents of post-traumatic stress and panic disorders when these children reach adulthood.

The early stress resulting from separation causes changes in infant brains that makes future adults more susceptible to stress in their lives, say Commons and Miller.

"Parents should recognize that having their babies cry unnecessarily harms the baby permanently," Commons said. "It changes the nervous system so they're overly sensitive to future trauma."

The Harvard researchers' work is unique because it takes a cross-disciplinary approach, examining brain function, emotional learning in infants, and cultural differences, according to Charles R. Figley, director of the Traumatology Institute at Florida State University and editor of The Journal of Traumatology.

"It is very unusual but extremely important to find this kind of interdisciplinary and multidisciplinary research report," Figley said. "It accounts for cross-cultural differences in children's emotional response and their ability to cope with stress, including traumatic stress."

Figley said Commons and Miller's work illuminates a route of further study and could have implications for everything from parents' efforts to intellectually stimulate infants to practices such as circumcision.

Commons has been a lecturer and research associate at the Medical School's Department of Psychiatry since 1987 and is a member of the Department's Program in Psychiatry and the Law.

Miller has been a research associate at the School's Program in Psychiatry and the Law since 1994 and an assistant professor of psychology at Salem State College since 1993. She received master's and doctorate degrees in human development from the Graduate School of Education.

The pair say that American childrearing practices are influenced by fears that children will grow up dependent. But they say that parents are on the wrong track: physical contact and reassurance will make children more secure and better able to form adult relationships when they finally head out on their own.

"We've stressed independence so much that it's having some very negative side effects," Miller said.

The two gained the spotlight in February when they presented their ideas at the American Association for the Advancement of Science's annual meeting in Philadelphia.

Commons and Miller, using data Miller had worked on that was compiled by Robert A. LeVine, Roy Edward L****n Professor of Education and Human Development, contrasted American childrearing practices with those of other cultures, particularly the Gusii people of Kenya. Gusii mothers sleep with their babies and respond rapidly when the baby cries.

"Gusii mothers watching videotapes of U.S. mothers were upset by how long it took these mothers to respond to infant crying," Commons and Miller said in their paper on the subject.

The way we are brought up colors our entire society, Commons and Miller say. Americans in general don't like to be touched and pride themselves on independence to the point of isolation, even when undergoing a difficult or stressful time.

Despite the conventional wisdom that babies should learn to be alone, Miller said she believes many parents "cheat," keeping the baby in the room with them, at least initially. In addition, once the child can crawl around, she believes many find their way into their parents' room on their own.

American parents shouldn't worry about this behavior or be afraid to baby their babies, Commons and Miller said. Parents should feel free to sleep with their infant children, to keep their toddlers nearby, perhaps on a mattress in the same room, and to comfort a baby when it cries.

"There are ways to grow up and be independent without putting babies through this trauma," Commons said. "My advice is to keep the kids secure so they can grow up and take some risks."

Besides fears of dependence, the pair said other factors have helped form our childrearing practices, including fears that children would interfere with sex if they shared their parents' room and doctors' concerns that a baby would be injured by a parent rolling on it if the parent and baby shared the bed. Additionally, the nation's growing wealth has helped the trend toward separation by giving families the means to buy larger homes with separate rooms for children.

The result, Commons and Miller said, is a nation that doesn't like caring for its own children, a violent nation marked by loose, nonphysical relationships.

"I think there's a real resistance in this culture to caring for children," Commons said. But "punishment and abandonment has never been a good way to get warm, caring, independent people."

(I won't post the link as CH4 Forums seem not to like links for some reason!)

Continuum Momma

In response, the studies that you mentioned are some time ago.

Yes, of course I have taught her the correct sleep associations. Don't we all go to bed at night to sleep? Are we sleeping before we get there?? NO!! Everybody goes to bed and then goes off to sleep.

Are you trying to tell me that my giving my baby a lovely playful bath, getting her into her jammies, cuddling her in to give her a bottle, placing her in her cot and reading to her that this is child abuse??

She then gets a kiss goodnight and I leave the room. She goes off to sleep on her own - I do not have to hold her in my arms, or rock her etc. If I did have to do this, how would this help??

You should perhaps look into the studies which prove how well kids do on a good nights sleep!

But early Karen you said you used controlled crying, that doesn't teach babies to sleep...it teaches them to give up and that their parents are not respectful of their feelings and cannot be relied upon to always be there for them

Until babies brains mature enough to self settle without being trained into it, to fall asleep happily alone then we should respect their need for help to sleep. Just because it's nightime shouldn't mean you stop being a Mum.
I have spoken personally to experts in this field who do say it's a form of abuse to leave them to cry (no matter how "controlled" it is) in order to make them sleep rather than wait for the brain to get to that stage naturally.
We all know controlled crying "works", makes the parents feel better, baby is quiet. But it's a hidden damage, quiet does not mean all is well and calm on the inside. They've just learnt you don't bother, there's no point crying. It's called learned helplessness, not learning to sleep.
I'd hate my children to be trained out of this instinct to communicate their feelings and needs. It's a trait that should be admired not surpressed.

Moogy, we are wasting our time, Karen, and all the other mothers out there who do this, doesn't want to hear what we have to say, she just wants us to be wrong. After all, how could she live with herself if she admitted we were right??

Karen. My daughter also has a bath, gets into her pj's and has a story, then she nurses for a short time and goes to sleep. Sometimes she nurses to sleep, other times she nurses and then lies quietly and goes to sleep, normally I am with her, other times I am not, it depends on if she wants me to stay with her, I give her the choice. The other difference is, she's 4 years old.

My younger daughter is 16 months. She also has a bath (with her big sister) and gets her pj's on, then we play and stuff for a short while and when she shows signs of tiredness I take her up to her bed (which is a bedside cot attched to ours, not a cot in her own room) and she lies down and I lie down and she nurses to sleep. She, like her older sister, will learn to fall asleep alone, but in her own time. I shall never leave her crying just so that she learns it earlier for my convenience.

You may think the study I have quoted from is "old" (it's around 10 years old) but that doesn't make it untrue, or obselete. The methods you are using date back to Truby King, so they are far older than the findings of this study. However, I see you are happy to use these theories even though they have been discredited by later studies (like the Harvard one). Why is this exactly??

I did controlled crying with one of my babies. my 3rd, when she was 6 months. She was challenging, I was distaught, needed space from her, was prob a bit depressed, and... it worked - for a while, and.. I really, really regret it.

She's still my challenging one, she's definitely more insecure than the others, and incredibly attention seeking, and who knows, maybe she would have been anyway as the youngest of three, but to my dying day I will remember how she wouldn't look at me for 2 whole days after we did it. I keep wondering why I needed to do it. Now aged 4 she is hopping up and down into my bed all nioght and because of guilt I feel I need to overcompensate, whereas with the other two I haven't found it difficult to set appropriate boundaries.

Now I'm expecting number 4 I can't wait to do the continuum concept thing and am looking into the numerous slings out there (crumbs it's confusing!)

I am not saying that any of you are wrong and I certainly do not think that my way is best! I just know that my baby is happy and contented. She goes to sleep at 7 because this is a natural cycle for babies...they get sleepy at this time and they need a good nights rest.

I did what you all are doing the first time around and my daughter was still in my bed at 5 years old. She did not get a good nights sleep and would be tired and grumpy the next day.

If you want your kids in your beds or to be running up and down the stairs till they are in their teens then that is fine. It is up to you and if you are all comfortable with this then good for you. But do not accuse me of child abuse.....that is a very serious allegation (and unfounded)

quote:

Originally posted by karen999:


If you want your kids in your beds or to be running up and down the stairs till they are in their teens then that is fine. It is up to you and if you are all comfortable with this then good for you. But do not accuse me of child abuse.....that is a very serious allegation (and unfounded)

Errm, my oldest went into her own bed by 18 months, of her own accord. My youngest at 12 months, of her own accord. I've never had them running up or down stairs all night, they accepted from when I introduced bedtime schedules, at 3/4 years of age that it was bedtime and went to bed. They're now 16 and 13 and I've never had any sleep issues with either.

That is good. I could not manage that first time around with my first daughter and when I did try it was too late. She was too used to getting into bed with me.

But I think that some of you who have said that she has only learnt that I don't come to her when she cries are wrong - during the day if she cries I am there straight away - and she knows this...when I put her down for her lunch time nap she babbles away to herself for about 1-2 minutes and then goes off to sleep. If she does cry I go straight in.

I too have no problems putting her down either at nap or bed time.

Do you know what I found funny?

Well there was the moment when CV said "I'm not that cruel" and the continuum mentor caught her out by saying "so you admit there is an eliment of cruelty"!!!!!

This got me thinking and does anyone remember the advert for either child line or the nspcc (sorry cant remember which) where a little vboy crying in his cot was shown while a voice said something like "he has learnt there is no point in crying, as nobody comes"

Well surely this is all CV has been doing is teaching "her" babies that theres no point as nobody is listening???? That was considered worthy enough of being classed as child abuse on that advert so how can anyone defend it?

There is a big difference between grizzling to try it on at bed time and screaming because they are so unhappy.

I posted this on another forum for all those that doubt CV's methods harm infants. Please read their statements.

There are valid scientific reasons why these reputable organisations have expressed their concerns about the risks regarding the method shown in bringing up baby, most of the evidence coming from the 90’s and 00’s with the development of new technology, such as brain imaging scans.

Maybe read these organisations statements on social baby website.

NSPCC

The Federation for the Study of Infant Death (FSID).

The Association for Infant Mental Health (AIMH)

Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health (RCPCH)

The Nursing and Midwifery Council (NMC)

Th Childrn's Project

La Leche League

The National Literacy Trust, Talk To Your Baby,

The Family and Parenting Institute (FPI)

quote:

Originally posted by oranjeboom:

quote:

Originally posted by karen999:
You only leave them for 5/10 minutes at a time - go in check, settle them and come out. Believe me I started this method when baby number 2 came along and after the third night she went down with no crying. She is now eight months and she sleeps 7-7. She is a very happy little girl, especially during the day and i put this down to the fact that she is sleeping for 12 hours a night.
Routines and structure is beneficial for any child - it does give them security and to suggest that people who follow this idea are guilty of 'child abuse' is ludicrous.

My baby gets a story last thing at night before she goes to sleep - she is wide awake - I read to her and before the light goes out I get a big smile. I leave the room and I never hear a peep out of her till the next day. So, does this make my guilty of child abuse??.....I used controlled crying for three nights (never leaving her for more than 5 minutes and the first night she cried for a total of 25 minutes....with me going in every 5 minutes....the second night she cried for 15 and the third night she cried for 5)

I do not think I am guilty of child abuse.....I have merely taught her good sleep associations.

It is not normal or natural to ever leave a baby crying. Ever. Not even for one minute.
They learn sleep patterns from example, not by leaving them crying. How many sleepless and disturbed nights have you had? I've had this many - NONE.
I've also never dealt with the following :
Night terrors
Tears before bedtime
Excuses to stay awake for any reason

How very strange. And all from never reading any stupid 'childcare' books.

i had PND for about a year with my daughter, one thing that kept me sane on the nights when my o/h was doing late shifts was the peace and space i could look forward to when my baby went to bed. we started at 3months. i used the same method as karen999, like her it took 3 nights of 2 - 5 minute breaks before she settled into an easy bedtime routine. she was never 'left' to cry at any other time. would it have been better if, in my state of mind at the time, i'd allowed resentment to build up? i think not.

my girl is 8 now and has never had:
night terrors
tears before bedtime
or made excuses to stay awake for any reason.

she takes herself up to bed at 7.30, reads for 1/2 an hour, then has a cuddle from us before all the lights go out and she settles down for a good nights sleep.

Eclectic Leopard - I used the controlled crying with my second time round becasue I had such a hard time with my first....I never had PND although looking back perhaps I did have.....having a baby is exhausting, stressful and sometimes a very lonely experience.

Since using this method it has been like 'night and day'.....I do not regret it for one minute an as I have said in previous posts I never leave my baby crying during the day (or even if she does wake in the night) I stick by what I said before and that was that I was teaching her good 'sleep associations'....after all we do not go to bed asleep or have some one sit with us....my daughter is an absolute delight and we have bundles of fun during the day. She is thriving and I (amongst other things) put this down to the fact that she is getting a great nights sleep......she is then ready to keep me on my toes the next day!

Also, I then have time at night to devote to my first child - I have dedicated this time as 'her' time and we sit and do her homework, watch TV etc. Having a second child can often lead to resentment with the first but because I have set aside time for her and because I get her to help with feeds has meant that she is totally in love with her sister and as a mother this is a lovely thing to watch and be part of.

.[/QUOTE]

It is not normal or natural to ever leave a baby crying. Ever. Not even for one minute.
They learn sleep patterns from example, not by leaving them crying. How many sleepless and disturbed nights have you had? I've had this many - NONE.
I've also never dealt with the following :
Night terrors
Tears before bedtime
Excuses to stay awake for any reason

How very strange. And all from never reading any stupid 'childcare' books.[/QUOTE]

Babies do cry sometimes for no reason so therfore when a baby has been changed and fed and there is NOTHING wrong with then they just need to be left and allowed to settle themselves obviously not for long periods of time but then need to figure stuff out for themselves.

Kate - you know it's funny but with my first child she was so unsettled in the evening, between 5 and 10 - nothing you could do would settle her....you know what? She was tired and I only wish that I had know about the controlled crying method then.

I actually found out about this method through my sister...she had her first baby last year and had a very bad and complicated labour.....she ended up having numerous infections, tyhroid problems and was very down...at 6 weeks she could take no more and so tried this method with great success....she has never looked back and like my daughter, her son loves his bed!!