I am sure most of you on this forum have read in the media of Fran Lyon whose baby will be removed from her by Northumberland Social Services as soon as she gives birth. This brave young lady has been through a lot in her young life, she was raped and suffered mental health illness as a result, she is now recovered and forging a life for herself. Northumberland social services have enforced a child protection order on the unborn child, due to the misguided information that she MIGHT develop Muncheausen by Proxy, a theory developed by the now discredited Prof Roy Meadow. The professionals making the decision have not even met Fran, how can they make such a decision if they have never met her.

This does no good for women who suffer from depression or postnatal depression. They might be forced to suffer in silence rather than seek the help they need for the fear of their child being taken away to reach government adoption targets. My heart goes out to this lady, and i wish her the best of luck with her fight against injustice.

This is something that really frightens me as I have experienced similar things to Fran Lyon. I find it very scary that someone might say that because of my experiences I'm not fit to be a mother.

It could have huge implications for women everywhere who struggle to speak about depression as it is; the fear of having their baby taken away is a reason why many women already don't speak out about PND, cases like this will only compound that problem

That's crazy! I mean, ok, monitor her a little more closely than the norm if there is concern, but you can't take the baby away from its mum on a 'maybe'! Otherwise there'd be dozens of babies taken away from their parents every day.

Even when there IS a genuine problem, taking the child away from its parents is supposed to be the last resort. It's not just PND sufferers this sort of decision could affect - it's everyone. Who's gonna ask for help if by doing so they're admitting they aren't coping perfectly, and so they risk losing their baby?

That is right, nobody going to ask for help if this type of thing is going to happen. Social Workers are a law unto themselves, they think they have a god given right to take away children from innocent and loving families. This girl needs support, not this. This baby needs her natural mother!

This is a really tough situation - for all concerned. I have read an article, in which Fran Lyon co-operated and she herself has given details to the media (normally they would be confidential)

The trouble is, is that Social Services etc have a statutory duty to protect vulnerable children. If they did not we would all be the first to cry out. What is difficult in this situation is that Fran Lyon, when the decision was made, had not even given birth! How could anyone know (even the mother herself) how she would cope with being a mum? The poor girl has had a terrible past and I think that even she has admitted that she does not blame Social Services. What is completely absurd is how some so called professionals can give a report on how they think she will behave towards the child. How the hell do they know?

It will cost Social Services a lot more in time and money to take the child and try and find alternative care than it would if they could support Fran in trying to be the best mother. What harm could it do for Social Services to help her and support her??

It is the treat and 'don't want to be sued' climate in this country which is now resulting in the most ludicrous decisions....it is not the fault of social services, nor the police, nor doctors etc but the people who make and pass legislation - namely the politicians.

Hi Karen

I do agree, this lady has not even had a chance to be a mother. Professionals are making assumptions without even meeting her. Fair enough if she already had her baby and was exhibiting signs of a serious mental health disorder, and her child was being harmed or might be harmed. I think that it is all to do with adoption targets, and targeting vulnerable women whose babies can be adopted. They already have older children in the care system who are in need of being adopted, of course people don't want to adopt a child, they want a baby.

all i can say is what a nightmare society!
punishing a mum on whats supposed to be the happyest time of her life.

What about rehabilitation??

Where is the insentive for her or other women and men in any situation to strive to make their life better and become rehabilitated if this is the sort of thing that happens?!!

Please remember that we have only heard one side of the story _ from Fran lyons. Social Services will not discuss an individual case in public due to confidentiality.
The mother's distress at the prospect of losing her baby and her desire to be a good mum may be very geniune. But we don't know why this decision has been taken.
As I understand it, the decision to remove a child from the birth parents is the last resort and the parents can challenge the decsion through the courts.

There is often too much secrecy involving cases like this. Families much in the same situation as Frans are left distressed and confused and although it is only one side of a story, it is embellished by social services so as they meet their own targets. Often there are reports done by "shrinks" for want of a better word saying that a parent is going through a mental health problem, so as when it goes to court the parents mental stability is questioned hence if leading to adoption the parent cannot argue the case due to being mentally unstable. It is wrong on such a level as it is barbaric!

I am at the moment in the process of becoming a foster carer. In the initial training course i went on i asked about why there was not more support for parents to be able to keep their children rather than have them taken away, particularly those parents with special needs. I was told that is because of funding. It actually costs them a lot more to have someone giving parents the individual support they need, than putting them into care. It is very sad and this case is terrible, i hope that mother is allowed to keep her baby. She could be monitored by a social worker if they are that worried, i find it hard to understand how they can decide this before the birth. As a potential foster carer i want to know that i will be caring for children who really cannot be at home.

Through non statutory agencies I have supported many parents who have lost, or are going through the process of losing their children.

Although I have not followed this case closely I think it is important to remember, as Careen stated, we are only hearing one side of the story.

Due to issues of confidentiality of both the children involved and the parents and the personal issues they are presenting – we will only hear one side and be more prone to making judgements based on limited information. But in my experience Social Services are so underfunded and overworked they do not take on cases lightly.

Unfortunately these parents, as genuinely distressed and confused as they are about the reasoning behind decisions Social Services make and the loss of their children, in my experience and knowledge of the issues (mental health, substance use, psychological distress etc ) they are presenting, and witnessing their behaviour towards others, they probably would have unwittingly permanently damaged and caused much distress to their own children.

Although equally I feel it is important to remember that these parents need support too because the majority I have worked with have equally disclosed having been subjected to damaging parenting in their childhoods.

What I don't understand is how they have made the leap from her having suffered depression in the past to her harming her (as yet unborn) child.

I could understand if she already had the child and couldn't cope; but I find it presumptuous that they can take away a baby on these grounds without giving her a chance

As I said I've suffered rape and sexual abuse, and the consequences: depression, PTSD and self-harm. Even several years on these things still affect me, and I don't doubt that being prone to depression there is a large chance I could get PND when I have a baby. I find it absolutely horrifying that because of my experiences someone might use this to take away my child in the future

Many women suffer traumas and many women suffer from depression. That doesn't make all of them unfit mothers; and I really don't understand how someone could say that a woman is definitely not going to look after her child when she hasn't even had that child yet

If you want to know what happens when you take away the children of a fragile person, you only need to look at Britany Spears. She appears to be on a spiral of self destruction now she has had her babies released from her charge, which is not surprising really, if you have any common snese at all you'd know that this is the most likely thing to happen!!

I hope Fran Lyon gets lots of help and keeps her baby.

I think that in cases where the child is at risk, as was supposedly the case with Britney Spears, the authorities have little choice but to remove the child from that person's care

However, it seems that the child is taken away and then the woman is left to cope with the aftermath without support. Women who have had their child taken away for whatever reason, should be offered proper help and counselling. They should also be allowed regular contact with the child: not once a week or once a fortnight, REGULAR contact. The authorities should be helping these women to deal with their problems so that hopefully they can soon have their children back. As it is, many are left without any form of help, and their problems get worse and worse, as they feel desperate and can't see a way out

I think there should also be much more help out there to those who find it hard to cope after the birth of a child, be it through stress, or PND. There needs to be more counselling and support groups more freely available: the mental health provisions in this country are appalling and getting worse by the week

is this working

Sorry just checking whether the forums were working, on a number of times i have types a long reply only to loose it due to technical difficulties. Yes I totally agree, Britany Spears children do need to be removed from her care as she is obviously not able to look after them properly, however Fran Lyon has not even been given a chance! Her case is totally different. She was raped, and then as a result suffered from mental health problems which she has overcome with great courage and determination!

Yes counselling does need to be offered and some sort of support for the mother. It seems that they are left on their own to just get on with it! We are hearing now of more and more adoptions to meet government targets and quotas. I heard I dont know where it was but a head of social work said that it is far cheaper to adopt than to provide support for the mother, how dreadful it that!