CM, all the mothers posting here have thought about it from their children's point of view, and *obviously* do not feel that it is wrong to give a child reassurance in the night. It is extremely insulting and arrogant to assume that because someone has a different opinion to you they have not considered the problem.

The baby who is not immediately responded to at night may well think that it is pointless to cry. But we cannot know if they think it is pointless because they have lost hope, or if they come to realise that there is no need to cry *unless there is something wrong*. Babies who have undergone controlled crying, and normally self-soothe, will still cry out if they are ill or hungry in the night. Which pretty much shoots down your theory that they have learnt no one comes to them when they cry.

In your opinion a child can't rationalise that they are safe in their bed until they are 3, but can understand that there is no point crying out if no one comes? (which we all do, even as adults - I cry out when I hurt even when I'm alone). I think they stop crying because they no longer feel the need to cry - perhaps what they learn is that Mummy does come when there is a problem, so if she doesn't come, it must be ok. Neither you nor I can know for sure either way.

You know how when a toddler takes a tumble, they sometimes gets up and carry on playing happily, and sometimes wail as though they have broken every bone in their body - depending on how concerned the adults around them look? I think that a lot of night crying is analogous to this. Day or night, if you rush to their side in a heartbeat, they think there is something to be concerned about. If you leave them to decide whether it is serious on their own, they may find play/sleep more desirable than comfort.

You said:
Controlled Crying does work, I know it does, I don't dispute that it does or doesn't work, I ask you to think about what your babies feel when they wake and they are alone. Do you really believe they lie there confident or do they just not bother to cry because it is pointless. These babies are not self soothing, they have simply lost hope.

I say:
Cosleeping does work, I don't dispute it. I ask you to think about what your babies feel when they wake and they are NEVER alone. Do YOU really believe it is better to give instant gratification to a child at all times? Or is there perhaps a middle ground?

And I really would like to know more about the NSPCC's stance on controlled crying, if you have another link?

Exactly Nicky! If a baby or young child is responded to the miniute they begin to cry or wimper, they will be used to being responded to immediately, and may not develop their own ways of soothing themsleves. I slept in my parents room and sometimes in their bed, but never got a good nights sleep, always waking up in the night and not getting myself off to sleep. The night that they moved my cot into my own room, i slept peacefully, I dont think that it is cruel like you suggest CM.

You said in one of your posts CM that you will give your child their own bed once they ask for it. What if they don't, what if when they are 9-10 years, and they never ask for their own bed as they are used to sleeping with you and know no different! Where do you draw the line! Its like extended breastfeeding, when do you say things have to change, and move the child on to the next stage!

It seems as though anyone who disagrees with your opinions are cruel and neglectful! That is not the case at all, each and every child and parent is different, just because we do things differently does not mean we are neglecting our children.

What I don't undrstand is how stupid she must think we are.

I said previously... babies cry for hundreds and thousands of reasons, not all of which are because they are in need of something. It is a babies only way of communicating so the cry can be a cry of hunger, pain or being scared as it can also be I want my own space, I don't want it to be noisy in here where mumm is or maybe... I feel sorry for mummy as she hasn't slept one wink since I was born and I started sleeping through at 5 weeks old all by myself.

Babies are clever and empathetic and very emotional.

continuum momma
Conrolled crying or self soothing does NOT mean a parent is to IGNORE their child, but to intepret their needs throughout the night. If a baby has a good diet and feeds well in the day, and is gaining weight healthily and has plenty of love and attention.... there is no reason why they can't sleep 8 or so hours at night as there is no compramise to the babies dietary or emotional needs.

Also if the baby gets to a point where they need a cuddle, I am 100% sure no parent here would every deny their child that comfort.

If my daughter wakes up it is very likely that she is not feeling unwell, but I can count on two hands the ammont of times she has woken in the night since she turned three months. But she still gets attended to.

I do encourage a nightime routine to continue what she has started as it is healthy for both my children to have a 'bedtime' as there will be no contemplation in later years. They will know it is bedtime, and i'm sure they will happy with that. They are learning to calm down and relax at bedtime, and love having their story together before her feed and then down to sleep.

I do not feel cruel and to quote you continuum momma

''When your child cries in the night they are asking for some reassurance and security. Why do you feel it is wrong to give this?''

Who said is was wrong to go to a child who NEEDS comfort or reassurance?? NOBODY

If a baby needs something in the night, then I am damn sure they will get it, and not be ignored.... but as my daughter like others doesn't wake... she doesn't need anything. She is showered with love, hugs, kisses and attention all through the day. Therefore maybe she thinks.. thank god it is bedtime, and very often when the music for Emardale she cries as she knows when she hears that her bedtime is approaching.

I do not work and they both get 100% of my attention 24 7, they both sleep through, are happy and healthy, and I have done nothing to compramise how they show their emotions.

Any parent who has children should not be made the way you make them feel, pretty soon i'm sure your post will start to become ignored. If you have nothing positive or productive to say to parent, who are asking for help, then why do you bother to reply.... only to come back with some poorly backed up advice and negative comments about peoples parenting skills.

I totally agree with you too Hysteria. Babies cry for a number of reasons not only to fulfill their basic needs, to just think that they cry because of that is to underestimate babies intelligence and as they get older their brains develop and so does their reasoning and understanding. Actually as babies begin to get older, they do know effective methods of getting mums or paretns attention, even if they are not hungry, tired, etc.

I dont even know what controlled crying is? But it sounds like a good idea if it means that both baby and parents get a good nights sleep. please note that sleep is not a luxury that we can do without, but a necessity for brain development and human wellbeing. There is nothing wrong with wanting to restore normal sleep patterns, though it takes time when you have a baby.

Unfortunately it is very very easy to misunderstand controlled crying - and that is where the problem lies. I was amazed that a web search for controlled crying didn't bring up any factual explanation of what it is, just lots of forums like this one, and articles that are clearly biased either for or against it!

So, Ok, for Piglet and CM, and anyone else who isn't sure what controlled crying is: this is what I understand controlled crying to be.

Firstly, controlled crying is supposed to be used with an OLDER baby (at least 6 months plus), with a sleep problem. ie it is NOT meant to be used on babies who simply still wake once or twice in the night for a feed and then settle easily, but on those who wake so frequently that they are causing themselves (not their parents!) harm through poor sleep.

Instead of rushing to the child's side at the first whimper, the parent waits for a few minutes (5 is usual), then goes in the reassure the baby. This is repeated every single time the baby cries. The baby is NEVER left crying for long periods. If the pitch of crying alters - ie it becomes truly distressed crying rather than the cry of a baby who is awake and wishes they weren't - the parent goes to check on them and comfort them earlier.

Most advocates say you can leave the baby for increasing lengths of time, (up to 15 mins). Personally, I don't think that is necessary or desirable - unless the baby is clearly beginning to settle at 5 mins, and your presence at that point would do more harm than good!

I believe that the baby learns, not that no one comes, but that it takes a while for Mummy or Daddy to come at night, but they *will* come if the crying continues. Usually, the baby learns to self-soothe rather than waiting for a parent, and goes back to sleep with less need to cry, and less need to awaken in the night.

This only needs to happen for a few nights (3 seems to be normal). Extended use of controlled crying (ie longer than a couple of weeks) could cause the harm that CM is concerned about. But that is not what anyone here is talking about doing.

Quoted from CM:

"Leaving a baby to cry for a few minutes whilst you change a dirty nappy is totally different to leaving a baby to cry to teach it to "self soothe" so you can get an unninterrupted nights sleep. Isolated incidents like that don't cause brain damage, but prolonged, consistant crying can."

Controlled crying is not, when used properly, advocating 'prolonged consistent crying', and it is not used to allow the PARENT to get sleep: parental sleep is actually a fringe benefit! Controlled crying is all about a few 'isolated incidents' of nighttime crying, in order to prevent the crying being a regular happening!

Also:
"The biggest danger with Controlled Crying is that it teaches people that it's ok to ignore thier childs needs, and it cn knock on to the way they deal with them in other ways."

Well, again, if used properly, that is absolutely NOT what controlled crying does. It is not about ignoring their needs, it is about allowing the child the time to assess their needs. It teaches people that their children are people too - not helpless newborns who need someone bigger to take care of their every whim. And it teaches the children the same thing.

Hi nicky

Sounds fine to me, i think that i will give it a go thank you for that information

I am glad we have had some actaul information that is useful thank you Nickycky!

My babies love their sleep and so do I. But They come first and so do their needs, it is just an added bonus that they sleep through. I have not had any problems with them sleeping. All I will say is.....

Thank god for baby sleeping bags!

Oh god, not this topic again!!

I did CC with my daughter when she was 3 months old. It is not cruel nor neglectful. I did not leave her to cry for long periods of time, I did not withhold feeds, cuddles, comfort etc. Since then she has slept through, eats well and is thriving. I am not going to go into great detail about this as I have done this on previous discussion but in my opinion it is not child cruelty and I dont believe that it has a long term negative impact......babies cry....even when you are tending to their every need they still cry, so IMO a little crying down time is not abusive and to suggest otherwise is absurd.

Well put Karen999....

Obviously our babies are the only ones who cry for no reason.
Unfortunatly, I can do evertything for my daughter ans sometimes she will still cry, sometimes I think she just likes to make a noise as she never actually gets upset with it most of the time.

Wow what a discussion. My son is 8months and he's not going through the night. I have just started doing CC recommended by my health vistitor (so it cant be that bad) and the first night he cried for 25 mins, i went in every 5mins to soothe him. By the 3rd night he was falling straight to sleep. He wakes up at 4am and i give him a cuddle after letting him moan for 5 mins and sometimes if im lucky he'll go back down. I really wouldnt recommend bringing your baby into your own bed. I have spoken to lots of mother that were doing that for up to 3 years in the end. CC is a good way of getting the child to relax in their own company. If a child falls asleep on the sofa whilst having a bottle,they must become very confused when they wake up in their cot on their own, that, if anything, must be very unsettling for them. Well thats what i think anyway.

I agree with you Beth&baby.....

As long as the baby has all it's needs met, then helping baby to feel relaxed and safe in their own room.
I too know that having the baby in the besd from the beginning can be a mistake to make, unless you want a child in the bed until they hit puberty.

My parents next door neighbour ended up having her daughter in the bed with them until she was 7!!
She started putting her in bed with them from the beginning, but only on nights where she was restless... creating the need for comfort when stirring from the beginning.

The sooner you can help your little one learn the skill to fall asleep on their own the better.
It doesn't necessarily need to be in the form of CC though.
A good night time routien is always good. Try playing the same music, a massage also give about 30 mins one on one attention to baby before bed, showering them with cuddles and kisses. Usually by bedtime my daughter is ready for bed as she needs her own space!!
She slept through from a young age, byt she fed very well through the day, which I suppose helped her to sleep well at night.

Also, a baby sleeping bag can keep baby warm, but not too warm, but also stops them from getting cold by kicking sheets off.

Hello, everyone. I am a 28-year-old married dad, with a 27 month-old daughter and 6-month-old son. I work full-time and my wife looks after the kids full-time, and we are both rather sleep-deprived.

I came to this site today after starting to read The Continuum Concept book - which I think makes total sense and may well be the saviour of the human race if enough people take heed of it - and I wanted to see what others thought about it in practice.

From the discussion above, it sounds like it's just not practical within the modern world in which we live. That doesn't mean we should strive to get as close as possible to this though, with as few exceptions as possible.

Where should these exceptions come from? Well, the most important one would be if you are so sleep-deprived that you are having terrible headaches, accidents or even symptoms of psychosis. This really can happen and it's worth avoiding at all costs, so if your only option is to use controlled crying then you need to use it.

However, there are lots of things to try first - e.g. nap during the day, give up on tv for a while and go to bed earlier, sleep on the weekend, try baths and stories and exercise and singing, etc. Controlled crying should be the last thing. We've never done it and hopefully we aren't going to need to, as our son has slept ok the last few nights (co-sleeping).

We all have our own ways IWB.
If it work for you then great.

Well for me 'napping' during the day is not an option as i use my sons nap times to catch up on housework or cooking and if im lucky i might read a couple of pages from my book that i started at christmas. I already go to bed at 8.30pm, the weekends are exactly the same as a weekday when babies are concerned, baby massage is great but doesn't get them into a sleep routine and singing twinkle twinkle every night was doing nothing. So for us, controlled crying is a brilliant technique as my son now sleeps soundly through the night!

For some babies it is all that works.
They are not all as placid as the rest and cannpt fall asleep wherever they are.
And I feel it is good to promote a 'betime' from a young age.
My mother had four children with us all being a max or 22 months apart and as little as 15.
My Mum and Dad simply could not co sleep with 4 young children in the bed.

And I cannot co sleep with 2 children in m y bed.
I certainly would not allow 1 and not the other.
I make sure I have continuity for both of my children, and what goes for one, goes for the other.
I have not necessarily had to use controlled crying as I am one of those mother peple hate because my children slept from an early age without any prompting. But on the occasions where they have woken up I have not taken them into my bed to sleep.
I have a big bean bag in both of their rooms and if they are upset in the night, we sit and have cuudles in there.
But it comes a point when they have to go back in their bed/cot. And when I KNOW there is nothing wrong with them be cause I am their MOTHER, I will put them back down, and give them time to drift off on their own.
If my children are cuddled until they fall asleep, they would most certainly wake up and want to be cuddled back to sleep. I always make sure they are happy and had their needs met, but ALWAYS put them back down before they fall asleep, and if needs be I will stay in the room until they are calm.

Controlled crying or other so called labelled methods do not necesarrily mean what people think it does.

I don't understand how some things that parents do Have to fall into a catagory. Children are not a brand, therefore the way we bring them up is not catagorised.

And I am fed up of simple minded people thinking that just because a child doesn't co-sleep with their parents then they are left to cry themselves to sleep in a flood of tears and misery.
It is in most cases far from that I am
absolutly sure.

Yes there are always exceptions and I am sure there are some babies out there who do not et their needs met.
But children and adults can be neglected in far more ways than their sleeping habits.

I agree with Hysteria1983 completely. Fed up of being made to feel like a bad mother because my son sleeps through the night when he gets put down awake. Ive even tested it and let him fall asleep on the bottle for a few nights and he woke up twice during the night, as soon as i put him down awake, i went in after 5mins and he was asleep....all night, so it must be worth letting them fall asleep alone!

Thanks Beth&baby....
It's about time people on here relise that some things work for some and not others.
I hate being made to feel bad, or guilty because my children are good sleepers and are very happy.
And that because of this they must be traumatised and neglected!!!!!!!!!!!!
They are not!!!!!

I think that some people need to realise the difference between neglect and creating emotional security for our children, as, the two are very, VERY far apart in comparison.
I sometimes get this though that people may be jelous and therefore make it out that I have done something wrong.

But when they ave had their say, I smile inside, because I know my children will bae happy and snug in their bed and cot, and not ropming about my bed.

When I refer to people slating me about my children sleeping, I mostly refer to my sis in law and my so called friend, that is not an attack on anyone here.