I was thinking about this, ladies and gentlemen of the forum. I think it's lousy that Kate has to go to rehab.
Kate Moss is to beauty what Beethoven is to music. Enigmatically attractive. Not to say she is a genius - I don't know - but her beauty is genius. She has been fun for everyone to look at for years now, our un-interviewed pixie queen who always looks gorgeous, who makes a place a famous place by her presence, who never looks bad. She is as clear a cultural icon as the Mona Lisa. And like the Mona Lisa we are drawn to her mysterious beauty.
She obliges. She gives the world her image over and over again. She gets rich from it. So she has some fun. I don't think that there are many people in the world who would not do what she did in her situation. If you were beautiful and had lots of funds, wouldn't you? Do you believe so strongly that what she did was morally wrong? Do you think that there is a moral distinction between being sozzled and being high on cocaine? I don't. There's a legal distinction, but that's it.
(Do you think there's a distinction between being on prozac and being on pot? I do - the only salient distinction is in the former case, the government regulates the dosage)
There was no indication that she was a danger to herself or others or that her partying had turned into an addiction that was ruining her life. She was not manic or out of control. Her daughter was well cared for when this was happening. The only thing that happened that sent her to rehab is that she got caught.
So now the journalists who took cocaine with her are demonizing her in the press, goading the design houses to step away from their contracts so that there will be more things to write about in the paper.
I for one think we should spring her from rehab and let her go back to her life. We had a good deal with Kate. She was our faerie queen, holding court in Glastonbury and Primrose Hill. She was a little bit magic. Now she is doing penance for sins we would all commit if we could because one of her fellow sinners turned her in.
Any celebrity is a role model. They accept the fun, the fame and the funds and they must also accept responsibility for our children's eyes upon them, and the eyes of those with the intellect of children.
Cocaine abuse is demonically addictive. At best, even in the early stages, it causes drastic character swings and changes which can lead to losses of careers, families and friends. Then there is the point that it is screamingly expensive, and addiction by us 'normal' people often leads to prostitution or other less severe crime-related activity. At worst addiction causes paranoid psychosis, strokes, seizures, nausea, blurred vision, fever, muscle spasms, convulsions, heart attacks, respiratory failure, coma and death.
There can be nothing good about any publicity by or about any person (much less a celebrity) which could lead to anyone pusher being able to say 'go on, try it; so-and-so uses it so it must be ok'.
Not what I want my kids to hear, I'm afraid. Kate Moss broke the first rule; don't get caught.
I’m afraid I have to disagree… Not with whether or not some woman with a drug habit should be sent to rehab and lose her job; but that I should have to be so bothered about it to invest emotionally on whether I think it’s right or wrong.
What exactly should I be bothered about? That some multi-millionaire of stereotyped iconism should suddenly find herself unable to sustain those millions!? I’m not quite sure what the terrible fate that has been dealt her is?
She has lost her contracts?
Big deal. That’s the game she was playing – and was winning – selling the notion that her ‘beauty’ could be purchased… to which, millions of women literally did buy into.
No-one has said she can never work again!? She’s lost a couple of jobs for breaking the law… An acquaintance of mine lost his job in a broker house for usage - after a random spot check! He rolled with the punches. It can happen to anyone who breaks the law.
What the real issue that baffles me is the fact that the media have somehow persuaded the general population that Kate Moss is some kind of ‘special’ person… and for absolutely no reason other than her looks... Stephen Hawking she is not… Chris Martin, or Ronaldo even (Sorry, only footballer I could think of).
And; I’m sure she can review her CV - look at her qualifications and get a job outside of the ‘Ponse’ industry like the rest of us… OK – she didn’t really invest in any education – but hell; I’m sure anyone of the high street supermarkets would be happy to have her behind the tills.
The truth about Kate Moss being ‘turned over’ in this way is nothing to do with morality, but everything to do with the shelf life of celebrity – we all know that recreational drug usage have been pretty much par for the course in that industry for a while – but what has changed is the fact that she is aging. Simply - Kate Moss inc. is now 32 and ripe for harvesting in the meat machine and that’s all.
She’s made plenty of money from it… more than most women in the UK will ever see… and she hasn’t helped the cause of feminism for the rest of us – still striving to be valued by society as more than sex objects (that ‘power’ has always been available to women – for a fleeting time)… And I’m afraid I have no sympathy - live by the sword, die by the sword… Currently 50% of women in the UK survive on less that £100 per week – I’m MUCH more worried about that.
Sorry Swannie, we’ll have to agree to disagree here I think.
I don't think that there are many people in the world who would not do what she did in her situation. If you ... had lots of funds, wouldn't you?
Sorry, forgot to add - not a hope in hell!
Okay, I'm biased; as an ex-cop I've seen too much misery, pain, death and disease caused by addictions of many kinds. Don't get me wrong, I'm no prude nor a saint - I smoke and drink more than I should and enjoy it (although I've been cutting back on both those for the last year).
As a cop I remember taking a 14 year old girl from a raid on a local 'private club' where she had sold herself at least four times that night in the car park (captured on IR camera); she couldn't be held in cells because she was getting withdrawal symptoms from whatever cocktail she was on (can't remember) and when she was taken to hospital she was diagnosed with seven different STD's.
Several times I arrested a well known local chap, my age, also called Phil, who used to drop LSD. That was in the late 70's and early 80's; he now lives about half a mile from my house, uses the 'disreputable' one of my two locals, and (basically) sits in a corner talking to himself, drooling and p*ssing himself. He is my age, 44. He looks about 75.
I once had to scrape a bloke off a pavement who had jumped off the top of a 300 foot multistorey carpark because - and I know it's a cliche - he genuinely thought he could fly. I then had to tell his wife that he was dead and escort he to the morgue to try and identify what they could pull together.
I had to go to hospital to interview a woman who had been involved in a car accident; the other driver was a junky and stoned out of his mind. He drove his car into hers (she was parked, seatbelt off, just getting out) and she went through the windscreen. Let's just say that Kate Moss has no competition.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Adman 1961: Sorry, Swann; have to disagree.
Cocaine abuse is demonically addictive. At best, even in the early stages, it causes drastic character swings and changes which can lead to losses of careers, families and friends. Then there is the point that it is screamingly expensive, and addiction by us 'normal' people often leads to prostitution or other less severe crime-related activity. At worst addiction causes paranoid psychosis, strokes, seizures, nausea, blurred vision, fever, muscle spasms, convulsions, heart attacks, respiratory failure, coma and death. QUOTE]
Yes, abuse of any substance is ugly. But I think most people who use cocaine do not get there. Just like most people who eat a Cadbury bar now and again don't become morbidly obese. Most people in the UK do not consider themselves to be alcoholics because they successfully function in life and drink occasionally - hmmm.
But what I am really interested in, Adman, is your idea that celebrities owe it to your children to behave ethically. I'm interested where exactly you think this obligation comes from. And how far does it extend? Do they have to recycle? The Greeks learned from the mistakes and the victories of their gods, not only the latter.
Hmmm.
I knew you guys would take the bate on this one! You're awesome, dudes!
But what I am really interested in, Adman, is your idea that celebrities owe it to your children to behave ethically. I'm interested where exactly you think this obligation comes from. And how far does it extend? Do they have to recycle? The Greeks learned from the mistakes and the victories of their gods, not only the latter.
It's not ethics, like recycling (although I'd like to see celebrities doing that, too). It's law. If she didn't like the law, she should campaign to get it changed THEN take drugs. If the UK agreed was with her, she'd be elected. But she wouldn't be. Others have tried to do exactly that and failed - because the majority of the UK electorate don't want cocaine legalised. And they don't want people in privileged positions to be seen to be flouting ANY law. Which is why she's now losing contracts.
Or she could move somewhere where she CAN take drugs. But then she'd be geographically remote from the hand that feeds. So she'd lose contracts!
The obligation comes from the fact that as celebrities we pay their wages, in all the ways you'll understand without me listing them. We are their bosses. And the majority of their bosses don't want hard drugs legalised. She knows that. Which is why she's doing rehab. Because it's an attempt to save her contracts!
If she wants the swings of living in the UK, she has to ride on the roundabouts, too.
Celebrity Jonathan King interfered with children and went to prison. That's illegal, too - or maybe we should have let it go? After all, the children (who hero-worshipped him) were willing - there was no 'rape' allegation so nobody really got hurt, did they?
Or maybe, just maybe, we have a duty to protect children who, at the end of the day, need us to protect them from what they see as the model being set by their idols?
Good points all, Adman, but I must point out that I think you may have conflated two separate ideas. I fully intend to protect my child from physical abuse, of course. I don't intend to protect my child from the reality of other people making mistakes. It's an important thing to learn. First, the object lesson. Just like every decision made, the decision to take cocaine has consequences. Why should I protect my kid from learning about that, or even feel like this famous person has let me down because that is what she did? Second, and maybe more importantly, no one is perfect, even role models, even idols, even parents. The sooner that lesson is learned, I think the healthier the kid will be.
I say that, however, fully aware, Adman, that my kid is still very young and perhaps I will feel differently when he is older. I very much respect your opinions. But I am not going to call you Silverback. No way.
BTW when you were a cop, were you the good cop or the bad cop?
I'll tell you what's dangerously addictive, bloody chat rooms. I've never been in one before now, but find it strangely compulsive. I even feel a mix of excitement guilt and shame. I suspect it is the rather perplexing absence of closure in the competition that is the lure. And also these bizarrely varied threads, which leads me to Kate and her obligations to Admans daughters. The only reason KM is paid a lot of money is her power to influence the lifestyle and purchasing choices of Admans daughters and others. In moral terms, there is a very good case for saying that all power over others should be exercised responsibly. There are degrees obviously. Military power should be exercised more carefully than the power of beauty and fame, but the root of the moral obligation is the same in each case - the extent to which your actions can negatively affect others and your duty to consider them. Kate Moss's behaviour has the potential to affect Adman's young and vulnerable daughters attitude to drugs. In ignoring this consequence of her voluntary pact with fame in order to indulge her desires, she has been reckless and irresponsible. This failure doesn't merit the current furore and it would be wonderful if both she and the press were more mature. But in my view she is guilty of a breach of a moral obligation and is certainly no fairy queen. A fairy queen is a metaphor for innocence. Kate Moss more accurately represents to me the cynicism and shallowness of our age.
Originally posted by Adman 1961: Celebrity Jonathan King interfered with children and went to prison. That's illegal, too - or maybe we should have let it go? After all, the children (who hero-worshipped him) were willing - there was no 'rape' allegation so nobody really got hurt, did they?
Or maybe, just maybe, we have a duty to protect children who, at the end of the day, need us to protect them from what they see as the model being set by their idols?
Indeed… This is more worrying to me than cocaine Adman… Celeb worship leading to girls (and boys) of 12 - yes TWELVE - offering themselves up sexually to their idols… on an every day basis at gigs… And worse… some of the older roadies (you know the type – done everything); get to abuse their access to these eager young things. Urgh!
What I find even worse is that everyone’s clamouring to ‘be cool’ about all things gangsta – ‘guns’, ‘drugs’ and ‘hos’ – that’s its very unfashionable to have the kind of conscience that sees it and speaks up!
Perhaps we as a culture should do more about the celeb worship than the celeb cocaine taking?
These aren't two separate ideas. To put it simply - surely, the law is the law? Once we allow / condone any individuals' actions to be based on what is right or what is wrong - "ethically" to quote you yourself - then we allow anarchy?
Do you really need others to break the law to teach to teach our children what the law actually is?
And thanks for not calling me silverback!
When I was a cop, I was a damn good cop. Although I didn't see it that way at the time, I never booked anyone for any offence that I myself had never committed. And I quit partly because somebody I arrested was beaten up by a coleague, and I wanted no part of it any more.
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This failure doesn't merit the current furore
I agree Inspector (where did the handle come from?) - but the law does. No man - or woman - is an island. KM just has more to lose than most, and more publicly - but that's because she has gained so much more, publicly.
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What I find even worse is that everyone’s clamouring to ‘be cool’ about all things gangsta – ‘guns’, ‘drugs’ and ‘hos’ – that’s its very unfashionable to have the kind of conscience that sees it and speaks up!
I agree. Kids do and have always claoured 'to be cool' about growing up. I don't want my kids to think that success + money + fame = the right to flout the law.
Nice thread Swann - one day I hope we can all sit down with a bottle of wine and get a face-to-face!
Originally posted by Inspector71: I'll tell you what's dangerously addictive, bloody chat rooms. I've never been in one before now, but find it strangely compulsive. I even feel a mix of excitement guilt and shame. I suspect it is the rather perplexing absence of closure in the competition that is the lure. And also these bizarrely varied threads, which leads me to Kate and her obligations to Admans daughters. The only reason KM is paid a lot of money is her power to influence the lifestyle and purchasing choices of Admans daughters and others. In moral terms, there is a very good case for saying that all power over others should be exercised responsibly. There are degrees obviously. Military power should be exercised more carefully than the power of beauty and fame, but the root of the moral obligation is the same in each case - the extent to which your actions can negatively affect others and your duty to consider them. Kate Moss's behaviour has the potential to affect Adman's young and vulnerable daughters attitude to drugs. In ignoring this consequence of her voluntary pact with fame in order to indulge her desires, she has been reckless and irresponsible. This failure doesn't merit the current furore and it would be wonderful if both she and the press were more mature. But in my view she is guilty of a breach of a moral obligation and is certainly no fairy queen. A fairy queen is a metaphor for innocence. Kate Moss more accurately represents to me the cynicism and shallowness of our age.
Man, Inspector, what a beautiful post - mad respect. I bet you write killer plays, dude. Great points, all.
But indulge me for a moment and allow youself to consider a more post-modern view of innocence. That in fact she doesn't represent the cynicism and shallowness of our age as much as she represents the result of the cynicism and shallowness of the age. I realise this may be some seriously weird mental gymnastics. Isn't it because the world all around her has the views it does of beauty and celebrity that she is what she is? Don't we want someone who can party all night and be photographed the next morning looking fabulous and rock and roll? I think we do. our magazines are full of all the pictures. We're like little kids with our favourite picture books looking at pleasing images over and over again to be comforted because we don't have an agreed moral code to judge the world. Do you know how many celebrity magazines are sold on this island every month? It is one of the most significant and competitive markets in Europe. People want this. They don't know why they want pretty picture but they do. And they want them because the cynicism and shallowness of our age has made more virtuous pastimes, more virtuous characters a thing of the past. People are famous because they are famous. And they are deeply admired for being famous by a lot of people. There used to be such a thing as infamy.
Don't you see a little Marilyn Monroe here? A little Liza Minelli? A victim of her own beauty?
What the real issue that baffles me is the fact that the media have somehow persuaded the general population that Kate Moss is some kind of ‘special’ person… and for absolutely no reason other than her looks... Stephen Hawking she is not… Chris Martin, or Ronaldo even (Sorry, only footballer I could think of).
And; I’m sure she can review her CV - look at her qualifications and get a job outside of the ‘Ponse’ industry like the rest of us… OK – she didn’t really invest in any education – but hell; I’m sure anyone of the high street supermarkets would be happy to have her behind the tills.
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ordinarliy i'd agree with you minxy, but surely there's an argument that to a certain extent we are all a product of our genetics, that beautiful people have beautiful genetics, clever people have clever genetics and so on. therefore to hold someone up as being special for whatever reason is laregly dependent upon an accident of birth. however, i do accept that certain qualities require development and a degree of hard work such as education or practice. nevertheless it is difficult to have much sympathy with someone who already has much more money than i'll ever dream about losing a small percentage of that fortune.
Adman's comments on board, i agree with Swann that it would be nice if KM felt able to stick two fingers up at those who outed her and not feel that she has to wander off to rehab with her tail between her legs. no matter what the examples set by celebrites there wil always be a minority of people who's lives are sadly ruined by substance abuse. however, (with the exception of those of us in the forum, who sit in darkened rooms writing plays) people are generally exposed to the same level of celebrity hype, but the majority are able to make an educated choice and can see the downside. personally, i blame an increased level in disposable income and the ease of borrowing for any increase in drug taking, more people than ever can afford to do it.
She took a Class A narcotic for recreational purposes and just because she is "beautiful", (debatable in my view - I'm not sure when looking like her became considered the epitome of beauty and health),I don't understand why I should look at her and see her "offence" as anything but a breach of the law. The majority of people caught in the same situation - without the back up of money, fame and this so-called beauty - would face having their children taken into care, a criminal record and a possible custodial sentance along with the rehabilitation she is facing. Why anyone can condone the use of cocaine because of her fame and wealth is beyond me - and as for saying cocaine users rarely reach heights of real addiction, the pure idea is preposterous! It's not a case of "there's no harm in it" because there is - she is damaging her mental and physical health and yes, in the long run, I believe she is also damaging the mental health of her child - well-cared for or not, watching your mother go through the day to day living of a drug habit is not going to help your development into a well-rounded adult.
She broke the law - she is paying the price. Maybe she should be thankful she still has a home and a family to return to - many wouldn't. And in my opinion, if she ever gets caught again, I would hope she is treated in the same way as any other reoffender and if a custodial sentance is what is required then her fame and fortune - and lets not forget that beauty - should certainly not be a "get out of jail free card".
As for how her behaviour is seen by others - she, like every other person in the public eye, is a role model. It comes with the territory, adults and children look up to them to set the trends of the day. I consider her behaviour disgusting and would be mortified if my children were using this woman as a role model - all she has taught them - and her own - is that because of her "celebrity status" she can flout the law.
Don't you see a little Marilyn Monroe here? A little Liza Minelli? A victim of her own beauty?
A victim of her own belief in her invulnerability? A victim of her own ego? A victim of her own shallowness, in not being able to find stimulation other than through a harmful, illegal narcotic?
Yep. Same mold. Or do I mean mould?
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it would be nice if KM felt able to stick two fingers up at those who outed her and not feel that she has to wander off to rehab with her tail between her legs
Ah, but she knows what side her bread is buttered on. Or rather, on what side of a contract her signature goes on - and on what side of a sliver of paper her cocaine is powdered on.
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Okay - my two penneth.
Naomire - every sentence, word and letter 100% spot on.
Up to now this has been an interesting intellectual debate for me, nothing more - but now that I read your thread I'm actually getting bloody angry about it!
I must confess that I confuse Moss with Kidd and the other one who's not Naomi. Of course one shouldn't take drugs or break the law, whoever you are. I posting this sipping a gin and tonic - my preferred drug. I've spent most of my life full of (legal) prescription drugs, so I don't feel able to sit in judgement on the dependency of others.
As for the issue of whether it's the duty of celebrities to be good role models for the young? I don't know? When I was a kid I lived in a cardboard box which I called a flower pot and called myself BillandBen . As a teenager, what was cool was what the in-crowd did - one's peers, rather than some distant celeb. What was uncool, was what everybody did - the herd. With reality TV I guess any one can be a celeb instantly - are these to be role models also?
I'm glad I'm not a teenager, doubly glad, I'm not a parent!
Firstly how interesting that a chat board about plays has thrown this subject up.
From my viewpoint I don’t sit in judgement on Kate Moss (or any other user) simply because I don’t know her (them). As to role models – look at the behaviour of footballers, ex (visually challenged) home secretaries, actors etc etc.
My experience. About 30 (ish) years ago when I was young I had a friend Mike, a 6’ 2” rugby player, a real gentle giant. Within a space of about 9 months he lost his parents in a car crash and his only brother to leukaemia. Naturally he went into a bit of tailspin. His Fiancée (who frankly was a bitch not a very nice person) ditched him because he was having problems.
Mike sort of dropped out of view for a while and when I next saw him he was in a dreadful state. Three of us tried to do what we could but he died a few months later from a heroin O/D. He weighed about 8 stone according to the guy who last saw him.
I do not believe that Mike sought out drugs. He was, I’m sure hit on by a pusher and in his vulnerable state saw it as a way out. (Remember that this was an age when depression was not recognised so well and if it was men were not supposed to suffer from it.)
My point? I couldn’t condemn Mike for taking drugs but I would have happily broken the legs of the pusher, And speaking as a committed pacifist I still would - especially if they tried it with my kids.
Any of us could go the same way given the circumstances – It’s the people who prey on the vulnerable who should be shot. Additionally Kate Moss was 14 years old when she started modelling – the industry that has made millions from her (and other like her) should have more responsibility for protecting their workers. When I ran a company I had to look after the welfare of my employees, the fashion industry should be forced to do the same.
May practical answer would be to make all drugs legal and available on demand. This would:-
a) Knock the bottom out of the market and take most of the pushers off the streets.
b) Dramatically reduce the crime rate (especially petty crime) which is largely fueled by the need to get cash for drugs.
c) Reduce the death rate as all drugs would be of a known quality and not cut with all sorts of chemicals.
d) Over time would reduce the amount of users as part of the glamour of drugs is that they illegal. Additionally people would not start if they had to go to their local government clinic to get them.
Don't buy any daily papers so don't care about KM or her problems.
H&M used her in ads - obviously as a role model for young kids - So i think they are well within their rights to cancel her contract now that she is associated with taking hard drugs.
If any of her habits affect her ability to gain work that is her decision and well, 'welcome to the real world Kate'.
'All we see and seem is but a dream within a dream' Poe
