I tend to disagree that the Asian culture is very similar. The may share similar culture is terms of similar food etc but in each of these groups they have their own mono-culture.

quote:

Originally posted by Sabzina:
I tend to disagree that the Asian culture is very similar. The may share similar culture is terms of similar food etc but in each of these groups they have their own mono-culture.

Can you give examples.
Did not say 'very similar'.

quote:

it is rather pointless to present stats/figures as you have without answering the more important questions that you have outlined above.

why dont you look into the issues that are behind the stats?

What I am trying to do here is discuss a very important issue,something which needs to be discussed not brushed under the carpet or be deemed politcally incorrect.
As for issues that is what I wish to look into, however not on my own but as part of a discourse with others who will have their own opinions on the matter. It would be pointless for me to start a discussion and end it myself.

quote:

indians do better at school than the british, how does that happen? shouldnt we expect that the british should be at the top of all the stats since they have a natural advantage?

Yes Indians do better. Why though, it could be to do with the fact Indian cultural values (or pressures depending on your point of view) encourage children to work harder at school. However are those values exclusively Indian, why that disparity when compared to Bangladeshi's and Pakistani's. Except for religion, the first generation of South Asian immigrants had much in common. Although these South Asian's were predominately split into three quite different religions they all shared the same zeal to practise their faith, celebrate their festivals, or build their places of worship.

quote:

do those asians who arrived here from east africa out perform other asians? why do you think that is, were they wealthier, rather more educated and part of the middle classes whereas many that came here in the 50's 60's were from the poorer rural areas less educated south asia?

The East African Asians had left their South Asian countries a generation before coming to England. Many of them had oppurtunities to study, work and prosper in Africa. An oppurtunity which was denied to many South Asian's untill they reached these shores. However although the South Asian's settled in this country they prospered very differently. Even though as nologo says many of the South Asian's hailed from mainly rural less educated areas.

quote:

what has happened to create an underclass in the last 20 or 30 years or so, has our textile industry been decimated, have many of our corner shops been put out of business by major superstores? many of these people were not from the east african asian communities.

The Decline of the cotton industry

The decline of the textile industry had a devastaing effect on the livelihoods of Northern communities. Many people had relied on this industry to provide for their livelihoods and a great deal of them were South Asian's.

quote:

if youre really interested in your question then go research it and provide the findings so thatw e all can understand the issues that provide the headline stats.

if youre trying to prove someother point , then youre wasting your time because only an idiot would fall for it.

IF I am trying to prove some other point, what would that point be? IF you are assuming I may have another point, should we assume just because I am a non-Muslim I am now being Islamophobic?
With all these assumptions should we simply all just pretend there are no issues just incase we may be accused of being some what politically incorrect?

This thread is not about point scoring, and was not started in that vein. Sanj Singh is not that way inclined.

Looking at socio economic forces at work in particular regions will provide some answers.
Looking at the university population breakdown will give further clues, by comparing %s over period of time. As immigrant generation beocmes 2nd and 3rd,.... will the figures still be the same?

It seems the moderators see this as an important topic, important enough for it to be emboldened and placed at the top. But are other forum users not interested?
What I fear is this topic will be ignored as it is such a touchy subject, and in the future people will just cite Islamophobia as the main cause of the differences between South Asian's. However we have to realise most of these statistics are dated April 2001,before the September elevnth atrocities.Before then Muslim's did not stand out and were regarded simply as Asian.
Even now many non-Asian people do not realise any difference between ethnicity, culture, or identity, between South Asian's. So Islamophobia cannot be an answer to the issue.

Not everyone is worried about being PC, genuine discussions to progress society are always welcome.
It has to be recognised that simple statements in statistics reuire deeper understanding and looking at the variables involved, some that have been mentioned here. It is not a simple x=answer, but x+y+z+a+...= answer.
This can be applied to other people in those areas.

To add, the evil partition of 1947 which was achieved through the spreading of hatred and creating pseudo differences, whereas previously all people were living together for the most part peacefully.

The separatists within South Asia try to attribute historical racial differences due to Aryans, which has been discredited, and basic application of common sense would indicate their is no 100% pure blood master race. As there was already an indigenous population in northen Part of the subcontinet as verified by the Indus valley excavations. Later time their were invaders who came and lorded over and mixed with the indigenous population, but their numbers were tiny in comparison to the indigenous population.
Ghengis Khan has millions of relations are they all Mongolian? NO!
BNP, Adolf Hitler all expressed these diffrences in racial theory.

Looking at each major religion Hinduism, the abominable caste system still exists, Sikhs- Jatts, tharkhans , socalled Papa, and other, Muslims, Sunni, Shia, Sufi... How pathetic that these pseudo divides still burn and are allowed to spread hate.

WE KNOW THE PURPOSE WHEN SANJ POSTS, AINT THAT RIGHT

quote:

Originally posted by Ricardina*:
WE KNOW THE PURPOSE WHEN SANJ POSTS, AINT THAT RIGHT

Hey you very long time!!!
Thanx for your sarci comment.

Sanj Singh -

quote:

The decline of the textile industry had a devastaing effect on the livelihoods of Northern communities. Many people had relied on this industry to provide for their livelihoods and a great deal of them were South Asian's.

South Asians arrived just as serious decline took hold.Unfortunate timing for them and leads one to question the elites insistence that they were needed to keep the industry vialble.

quote:

Originally posted by MRTIBBS.:
Sorry there was a question was there wasn't addressing any questions didn't see any, rather thinking out aloud then typing it if you like, I must stop doing that.

For goodness sake, dont go changing your posting style after all of these years I miss you little links to illustrate the points you make too ahhh the good old days!!

Some of the oldies are on the otherside now, you know where to find me, dont pretend you dont.
Posting here isn't much fun due to a lot of deleted threads and the silly edit button.

Im generally in the Lost forum these days, oh it can be quite racy sometimes too

I never thought I will be touched upon the facts reported by these data collecting groups until I graduated. Despite achieving very good results, I was forced to become self employed contractor when my job search assignments bared no fruits.

That result of Pakistanis being mostly self employed must be true because it was only few weeks ago when I found out a colleague of mine was also a registered taxi driver. I was shopping in the weekend when I saw one taxi driver helping a disable person to get on a taxi only to notice Mr X; the Analyst at some place I currently work.

Now I know why Mr X is always moody - all work and no play huh.

One reason why I think Pakistani and Bangladeshi people are not as economically successful as their Indian counterparts may be that the cultures of these two nations encourage women to stay at home as homemakers rather than go out and get a job.
For example according to the data from the Office of National Statistics Sikh's and Hindu's (Indian) are more likely to own their own home, 82% and 74% respectively. Wheras 28% of Muslim households are likely to live in social accomomodation. Now naturally if Indian women are likely to be working then obviously there is more money coming in, so a higher chance of saving money to buy their own homes as only 8% of Sikh's and Hindu's live in rented accomodation.
However the above data does not talk of Muslim women being less likely to be unemployed that is only my opinion.

So how about some of the other differences between the many different cultural and religious groups of the sub-continent. Education, health and Employment, what are the causes of them?
Or does it not matter?

Sanj

Success is not always measured by the size of your wallet.(in my opinion)

I think attaining inner peace shows success to me.

I think it all boils down to the greed of money, it's never enough.

Before anyone shoots me, i want to air MY experience.
I have found indian families more aimed at gaining wealth, than pakistani families. The pakistani families are always looking to send money back home and are orientated more by religion than money.

quote:

Originally posted by demojunk:
Sanj

Success is not always measured by the size of your wallet.(in my opinion)

I think attaining inner peace shows success to me.


I think it all boils down to the greed of money, it's never enough.

Before anyone shoots me, i want to air MY experience.
I have found indian families more aimed at gaining wealth, than pakistani families. The pakistani families are always looking to send money back home and are orientated more by religion than money.

I totally agree with you Demojunk, finance only goes a certain way, inner peace/Anand/Bliss is what truly matters.
However we cannot ignore the practicalities of the world we live in. Poverty, poor education, high crime rates are all links of the same chain, which causes suffering.
Poor education leads to lack of employment prospects, thus having to rely on the state for accommodation, social housing which is often in deprived areas with high crime rates,and bad schools, which in turn leads to poor education and the circle of poverty continues with little chance of escape.
A major concern is that there is a significantly larger Muslim population in prison compared to other South Asian religions, namely Buddhist's, Hindu's, and Sikh's.

http://www.adherents.com/misc/adh_prison3.html

According to these statistics compiled by the Home office regarding prison population by religious groups in 2001 the Muslim community has a population of 6.6 per cent of all inmates. This is comapred to 0.4 per cent for both Hindu's, and Buddhists, and 0.6 per cent for Sikh's.
There is clearly a noticeable difference one which should be addressed and not brushed under the carpet as politically incorrect discussion.
Are all theses statistics connected, poor health, education, high prison population or are there other factors involved which we haven't taken into account.

Sanj

Prison is not always full of "guilty" people.
Especially with all these new terror laws of holding people for 28+ days with no trial or legal representation.
And Muslims are the new targets now as blacks were in the 1970's with the "sus" laws.

quote:

Prison is not always full of "guilty" people.

Very true.

quote:

Especially with all these new terror laws of holding people for 28+ days with no trial or legal representation.
And Muslims are the new targets now as blacks were in the 1970's with the "sus" laws.

Islamophobia cannot be used as a cause of the problems listed above. The main reason being that before 9/11 and 7/7 the majority of "White Britain" had no idea of the differences between the Ethnic South Asian communities in the United Kingdom. Even now how many of the Ethnic majority people of England cannot identify between an India, Pakistani, Sri Lankan for example let alone a Muslim, or a Hindu. I know, for the constant stares I get for being a turbaned, bearded Sikh often riding the tube in the City.
It would be a tavesty if we were to blame this on Islamophobia simply because the statistics are from 2001 when the effects of prejudice against Muslim's couldn't possibily have had such a great impact in such a short period. We do not want future generations to blame this all on racism when there maybe a different reason which has not been addressed due to the sensitivity of such a topic.

On the points you mentioned about the terror laws and the vilification of Muslim people in many circles and by certain media groups (some people no doubt will say topics like this fall into that category) is an important topic of discussion which needs to be addressed.

quote:

Originally posted by Dogra:

quote:

Originally posted by Sanj Singh:

quote:

The topic was started over the success of Asians in the U.K., who tend to be Muslims

No there are many, many Asian's who are not Muslim. Such as

Sikh's

Guarati's

And so many more, there are many different cultures in the British Asian communities in this country.

The cultures are not that different, there are many languages, but all speak English. Food has a few regional varieties.
Religion is religion it is a faith not a race. There are a number buffoons who claim 'hindus' are a race, really well how comes Guru Nanks parents were of the hindu faith, does that mean someones race changes when their faith does
These cultures are not separate or distinct, nor act in isolation. e.g. Punjabis, language food customs practically the same regardless of faith or nonfaith.
People experince the varieties available resulting in more of a merging of cultures, not completely but overlapping as some people will take on other regional practices like food.

Aryans invasion garbage has been rightly put in the dustbin of history:

Aryans

quote:

The usual explanation found in history books is that the inhabitants of the Harappan cities were driven out by the invading Aryans. However it is now recognized by scholars that the Aryan invasion theory of India is a myth that owes more to European politics than anything in Indian records or archaeology. (The politics of History, The Hindustan Times, Nov. 28 1993).

Citizen Dogra, always on hand to settle the score on all thing Asian. No wonder you are my minister for Asian affairs.

Er, do you think Sanj Singh is still drinking from the cup of that story about Aryans and Indians working in the sun, hence they turn Black?

quote:

Originally posted by Lord Atiladhun:

quote:

Originally posted by Dogra:

quote:

Originally posted by Sanj Singh:

quote:

The topic was started over the success of Asians in the U.K., who tend to be Muslims

No there are many, many Asian's who are not Muslim. Such as

Sikh's

Guarati's

And so many more, there are many different cultures in the British Asian communities in this country.

The cultures are not that different, there are many languages, but all speak English. Food has a few regional varieties.
Religion is religion it is a faith not a race. There are a number buffoons who claim 'hindus' are a race, really well how comes Guru Nanks parents were of the hindu faith, does that mean someones race changes when their faith does
These cultures are not separate or distinct, nor act in isolation. e.g. Punjabis, language food customs practically the same regardless of faith or nonfaith.
People experince the varieties available resulting in more of a merging of cultures, not completely but overlapping as some people will take on other regional practices like food.

Aryans invasion garbage has been rightly put in the dustbin of history:

Aryans

quote:

The usual explanation found in history books is that the inhabitants of the Harappan cities were driven out by the invading Aryans. However it is now recognized by scholars that the Aryan invasion theory of India is a myth that owes more to European politics than anything in Indian records or archaeology. (The politics of History, The Hindustan Times, Nov. 28 1993).

Citizen Dogra, always on hand to settle the score on all thing Asian. No wonder you are my minister for Asian affairs.

Er, do you think Sanj Singh is still drinking from the cup of that story about Aryans and Indians working in the sun, hence they turn Black?

Well if you spend all day in the sun it does effect your complexion.