Like most people I've been following the story regarding the attempted bombings in London yesterday with interest, however I wanted to broaden the subject matter and ask: does it need another event even more catastrophic than 9/11 before everyone in this country puts aside their ethnic & secterian beliefs and unites against terrorism? I ask because although I'm sure the topic has been covered before, there doesn't seem to be any feeling of 'we're all in this together'. Scots are agitating for independence, as are the Welsh and (if they had their way) the Cornish. Meanwhile most ethnic groups don't seem to have much of an affinity for the country which their parents and ancestors made huge sacrifices to move to. In short, nobody seems to feel British and dear old Trevor Philips' warning about people living separate lives with no interest in communicating with others ouside their own group is coming home to roost. At least in the US nearly everyone, whatever their background held the common belief that America, because of its historical values, wouldn't be cowed by terror. People stopped worrying about whatever social injustices their particular ethnic group were victims of and instead, focused on the bigger picture. In fact, the partiotism in the US at times has been a bit OTT, but the intent was well-meaning. Unfortunately, the same can't be said for the UK...
Good post but I think you should amend your 'most ethnic groups don't seem to have much of an affinity for the country' as this could apply with equal measure to many white people! One only has to view some of the lefty drivel written on the Channel 4 news forum to understand this. It is an interesting point though. Personally I feel proud to be a punk rocker rather than English. To my mind, though, this is because I was brought up in an education system imbued with left wing attitudes. As a result I find it hard to associate myself with England as a whole. Then again, given the example of our celebrity obsessed culture should I worry about this? Do the Big Brother generation really represent me, or England as a whole?
Originally posted by roastbull: most ethnic groups don't seem to have much of an affinity for the country which their parents and ancestors made huge sacrifices to move to. In short, nobody seems to feel British and dear old Trevor Philips' warning about people living separate lives with no interest in communicating with others ouside their own group is coming home to roost. At least in the US nearly everyone, whatever their background held the common belief that America, because of its historical values, wouldn't be cowed by terror. People stopped worrying about whatever social injustices their particular ethnic group were victims of and instead, focused on the bigger picture. In fact, the partiotism in the US at times has been a bit OTT, but the intent was well-meaning. Unfortunately, the same can't be said for the UK...
America has expended a lot of effort in making people feel American. The British have never really done this with the various migrant groups that have come here. Migrants were not helped to feel part of British society and British people weren't taught about the people they needed to welcome. For those who are visibly different it can be hard to shake of the shackles when society looks at you and sees difference rather than Britishness, even after several generations. Immigrants put up with this treatment, but their British offspring don't. It can seem easier to isolate yourself than to face constant rejection, tokenism or the sense that you're meant to feel grateful to someone for letting you live in what's supposed to be your own country - Britain!
And why assume that British terrorists don't feel British? Maybe they feel too British - so British that they feel right to impose themselves violently on British society. Does a British mass murderer carry out his crimes in Britain because he doesn't feel British?
Terrorists have no affinity with the country they were born or brought up in. All that matters to them is their ideaology. However, I stand by my point which is that Britain could do with being more unified by stopping: - the spread of 'ghettos' where certain ethnic groups see no future and thus feel isolated from the rest of society - rampant nationalism with the other nations like Scotland, Wales, etc -this ridiculous, endless drivel about 'diversity'. Look up in any English dictionary, the meaning of 'Diverse' and tell me whether the connotations are in the best interest of promoting a common set of values for Britain that everyone believes in.
Originally posted by roastbull: I stand by my point which is that Britain could do with being more unified by stopping: - the spread of 'ghettos' where certain ethnic groups see no future and thus feel isolated from the rest of society - rampant nationalism with the other nations like Scotland, Wales, etc -this ridiculous, endless drivel about 'diversity'. Look up in any English dictionary, the meaning of 'Diverse' and tell me whether the connotations are in the best interest of promoting a common set of values for Britain that everyone believes in.
Your suggestions are quite abstract though. How do we 'stop' diversity? Even without any 'ethnic minorities'at all there would be diversity - religious, ideological, political, moral, lifestyle.... It's not just the presence of Muslims that's suddenly created diversity in Britain!
The word diversity is usually used in connection with multiculturalism, but a better word would be pluralism, because the fact is, we all believe and do what we like. You're not suggesting this should be stopped, are you?
quote: Originally posted by Miss Dee : Your suggestions are quite abstract though. How do we 'stop' diversity? Even without any 'ethnic minorities'at all there would be diversity - religious, ideological, political, moral, lifestyle.... It's not just the presence of Muslims that's suddenly created diversity in Britain!
The word diversity is usually used in connection with multiculturalism, but a better word would be pluralism, because the fact is, we all believe and do what we like. You're not suggesting this should be stopped, are you?
I am not suggesting at all we curb people's liberties and freedoms but at the same time I strongly feel if we have a 'bugger all, couldn't care less/every man for himself' attitude regarding what unites people all over Britain, then what you are left with is a fractured society where everyone has their own adgenda. You cannot hope to have a united country in the face of potential future terror attacks. I'm not saying we are 'in the trenches' but think back to the patriotism before and after WW2 and you'll see what I mean. I think we all need to re-evaluate why we are living here, what are the historical British values that unite everyone and makes people happy (and proud) to be here. You cannot and should not stop pluralism, but at the same time, we should ask ourselves: 'what is it that we like most about Britain that make us want to serve the country in some way?' This is a more productive mindset as opposed to: 'what has my country ever done for me?' That's how you start developing unity and possibly, even the patriotism that's been missing.
No Englishman can say he wasn't touched by Braveheart "FREEEEEEEEEEDDDDDOOOOOOOOOOMMMMMM!!!1!!1!!!". Philosophical identity is above cultural identity, this is where the US got it right in what makes a country. A people are a group of individuals with an emotional connection to each other, like a pack of wolves, a gang in prison, a primitive arrangement where emotional ties are needed to ensure the trust needed for the group to work together.
There is nothing necessarily wrong with this, comraderie between firefighters and soldiers for instance is beneficial to them, however it must be rememberred that it is only a tool. Can you imagine Braveheart shouting "DIVEEEERRSSSIITTYYYYYY!!!!11111!!"?
Mr RoastBull said "At least in the US nearly everyone, whatever their background held the common belief that America, because of its historical values, wouldn't be cowed by terror. People stopped worrying about whatever social injustices their particular ethnic group were victims of and instead, focused on the bigger picture. In fact, the partiotism in the US at times has been a bit OTT, but the intent was well-meaning. Unfortunately, the same can't be said for the UK..."
They were all together so much that they let the government do whatever they wanted for a couple of years. Now they can all be listened into on the phone for no reason (along with many other losses of freedoms), have lost thousands of soldiers in Iraq and are hated even more now than before 9/11.
Having said that, it sound a bit like us aswell. A point, how was the terrorist situation in N.I. sorted out, at the political table, dealing with those who were definately connected to terrorists.
You don't have to curb people's civil liberties completely to fight terrorism, but just understand that we all live in the UNITED Kingom og Great Britain and no man/woman is an 'island'. The culture of the 'individual'/isolationist mentality must not get out of hand. As zwaraaaa said, "A people are a group of individuals with an emotional connection to each other" and we are all part of a society which I would hope we all want to contribute towards. We all have a reason for being here, even if we don't call ourselves British. If people's reasons for being here are not partially in the interests of the country and in fact, people don't like this country, they can AND should leave...
"British" is ambiguous, here are some of my definitions.
Being British in the logical sense is having a passport and obeying the law. You could do your upmost to destroy Britain within the constraints of the law and in effect you are still British in this sense.
Being British in the utilitarian sense means wanting to make these islands a pleasant productive place to live to ensure civilisation as a whole progresses. Our character who wants to do his upmost to destroy Britain within the constraints of the law is not British in the utilitarian sense.
Then there is being British in the ethnic sense which could be broadly defined as having the same features as people living here 1000 years ago and to have been (or be) born and raised here.
There is also being British in the cultural sense. If a custom was developped in Britain or has existed here on a large scale it is British in that sense.
Roastbull, take a look at my definitions of "british". What significance do you believe they have? Where would they be used when forming everyday or important decisions for example?
Originally posted by zwaraaaa: No Englishman can say he wasn't touched by Braveheart "FREEEEEEEEEEDDDDDOOOOOOOOOOMMMMMM!!!1!!1!!!". Philosophical identity is above cultural identity, this is where the US got it right in what makes a country. A people are a group of individuals with an emotional connection to each other, like a pack of wolves, a gang in prison, a primitive arrangement where emotional ties are needed to ensure the trust needed for the group to work together.
There is nothing necessarily wrong with this, comraderie between firefighters and soldiers for instance is beneficial to them, however it must be rememberred that it is only a tool. Can you imagine Braveheart shouting "DIVEEEERRSSSIITTYYYYYY!!!!11111!!"?
I wouldn't personally choose Brit hater Mel Gibson and his dumb down dodgy history films but whatever floats your boat...
I would call Mel Gibson an English hater rather than british hater. The patriotism of the USA has meant that people have given their government a lot of wiggle room with their freedoms. Some in yanksvilee consider the questioning of the government as unpatriotic. I would rather we are where we are than more like the americans. And as a Scotsman it becomes hard to feel British when people so often use the words England and Britain as the same thing (foreigners do this a lot). Why should we be patriotic? Nationalism is highly narrowminded.
Originally posted by roastbull: most ethnic groups don't seem to have much of an affinity for the country which their parents and ancestors made huge sacrifices to move to. In short, nobody seems to feel British and dear old Trevor Philips' warning about people living separate lives with no interest in communicating with others outside their own group is coming home to roost. At least in the US nearly everyone, whatever their background held the common belief that America, because of its historical values, wouldn't be cowed by terror. People stopped worrying about whatever social injustices their particular ethnic group were victims of and instead, focused on the bigger picture. In fact, the partiotism in the US at times has been a bit OTT, but the intent was well-meaning. Unfortunately, the same can't be said for the UK...
America has expended a lot of effort in making people feel American.
In what way? Segregation in America is in living memory, as is not being allowed to sit on a bus and such like. We certainly in this country don't have a whiter than white record (pardon the pun, it was sincerely unintended)but I think we have been far more welcoming and less discriminatory in this sense. Most racism has been alot more covert; not better I give you, but in being covert it must have been understood to be wrong whereas the US obviously believed they were correct to segregate just as they did in S.A as they dis it so openly and used harsh methods to implement their disgusting laws
The British have never really done this with the various migrant groups that have come here.
I disagree, we have provided accommodation, benefits, education, language classes. I am pretty certain these are not things readily available to migrants in the US. We have many community projects set up to aid integration but many migrants don't want to go, there are many outreach programs in place but if people don't want to be a part of it, you cant force them to be and so we have this situation now of separate segregated pockets of society. it is very obvious now in my area which was once a close knit mining community in the west end of Newcastle. We have a predominantly white area, then there's a little tiny pocket with white/Arabic/Asian majority householders, a little further up the road its ALL Asian, a little further again and its an African community, then you get to the more expensive houses again, guess who lives there? You guesses it, mostly white though there are quite a few Asian families buying up there now too. People will only belong if they want to, nothing you put in place will force the issue for them,
Migrants were not helped to feel part of British society and British people weren't taught about the people they needed to welcome.
neither was the US We do now, as do they. Migrants were not helped in the past, but we learned from those mistakes and now do alot more to aid integration and to help migrants settle in than we ever did, and a hell of alot more than the US still does. See above
For those who are visibly different it can be hard to shake of the shackles when society looks at you and sees difference rather than Britishness, even after several generations.
Thats not a problem specific to English society, and I have to say I kinda begrudge you saying it is. It happens world wide, its actually alot better here than most other countries though we have a long way to go before people truly become colour blind I accept, I don't think that those who are doing alot to change things should be criticised and go unrecognised when in comparison to the greater community of the world, they are actually doing a HELL of alot to help the situation, bad feeling toward immigrants right now is based on more than skin colour, its too simplistic to suggest its all about melanin. I don't excuse discrimination, I loathe it in any form, but there's more to it than that and there always was
Immigrants put up with this treatment, but their British offspring don't. It can seem easier to isolate yourself than to face constant rejection, tokenism or the sense that you're meant to feel grateful to someone for letting you live in what's supposed to be your own country - Britain!
I again disagree, I know members of my husbands family who have made no effort to be a part of British culture. they refuse to learn to speak the language of the country they have called home for the past 30years, thats a prettypoor show imo, then they expect the NHS to pay for interpreters when they go to G.P's or hospital appointments. i personally dont think thats on, whilst they learn the language I agree to helping them as much as we can to get by, but 30years of interpreters fees, come on, thats unreasonable. They have never spoken to English people because they simply cant. they are unable to help their children with school work, they cant attend parents evenings. Whats to be done? Spend more money on more schemes to try and draw them out of their shells? They wont go, they wont integrate under any circumstance, they have not experienced rejection or any of those things, they have never even tried, i have asked them why, they say its because they dont need to. They have all they need and can cope quite nicely. I find this appalling. I live abroad, in italy, within a few weeks I had picked up enough to get by, my conversational level by 3 months of living there made me totally independant. I find it a little rude to do otherwise. i dont even like to holiday ina countryI dont speak the language of. i think everyone should learn at LEAST the niceties like pleaee, thank you and what is considered good and bad manners, coz when i go to their house (in England remember) Im expected to observe THEIR customs and manners, in mine, I still have to observe theirs if they visit. I just dont get that
And why assume that British terrorists don't feel British? Maybe they feel too British - so British that they feel right to impose themselves violently on British society.
This makes no sense at all. Are you saying they feel by imposing this violence indiscriminately on society, they are doing what they consider to be the British thing, living the British life? Carrying out their British rights? I don't follow this logic at all
Does a British mass murderer carry out his crimes in Britain because he doesn't feel British?
If he makes a video claiming such then yes, otherwise no, most mass murderers don't belong to groups which openly say they hate British society, they tend to work alone and eventually their motive becomes clear, cleaning up the streets of tarts may be one reason for it, a need to purge the world may be another. I find this a strange thing for you to suggest
Thank you. Namaste. Good Luck.
** BLACK HORSES TRUE AND ONLY FORUM WIFE!!**
(I hate JATE and SATE threads and those stupid mills and boons wannabe stories)
Originally posted by roastbull: Terrorists have no affinity with the country they were born or brought up in. All that matters to them is their ideaology. However, I stand by my point which is that Britain could do with being more unified by stopping: - the spread of 'ghettos' where certain ethnic groups see no future and thus feel isolated from the rest of society - rampant nationalism with the other nations like Scotland, Wales, etc -this ridiculous, endless drivel about 'diversity'. Look up in any English dictionary, the meaning of 'Diverse' and tell me whether the connotations are in the best interest of promoting a common set of values for Britain that everyone believes in.
I think an important start would be to ensure immigrants receive an appropriate language course geared to their level of ability and for them to be given the opportunity to receive an education so they are on an equal footing with the rest of us. This I think will help them to feel equal and be treat as equal. There's a myth that the immigrant is untrustworthy and stupid because they may not have had opportunities to be educated before and may not speak English, and so they are taken advantage of easily, unaware of what is available to them in this country (services and such like, even basics like knowing who to call when someone has been fly tipping in your back lane!!) Make them proud by giving them something to be proud of in themselves
Thank you. Namaste. Good Luck.
** BLACK HORSES TRUE AND ONLY FORUM WIFE!!**
(I hate JATE and SATE threads and those stupid mills and boons wannabe stories)
Originally posted by roastbull: quote: Originally posted by Miss Dee : Your suggestions are quite abstract though. How do we 'stop' diversity? Even without any 'ethnic minorities'at all there would be diversity - religious, ideological, political, moral, lifestyle.... It's not just the presence of Muslims that's suddenly created diversity in Britain!
The word diversity is usually used in connection with multiculturalism, but a better word would be pluralism, because the fact is, we all believe and do what we like. You're not suggesting this should be stopped, are you?
I am not suggesting at all we curb people's liberties and freedoms but at the same time I strongly feel if we have a 'bugger all, couldn't care less/every man for himself' attitude regarding what unites people all over Britain, then what you are left with is a fractured society where everyone has their own adgenda. You cannot hope to have a united country in the face of potential future terror attacks. I'm not saying we are 'in the trenches' but think back to the patriotism before and after WW2 and you'll see what I mean.
Those were not times that were as good as it may seem in hindsight, I think you are viewing those VERY hard years with rose tinted glasses. The reason we stood together against all was because we had no choice, families were closer not spread across the land but families were also lost too and so often we were united in grief. that's not something I wish to experience personally.
I think we all need to re-evaluate why we are living here, what are the historical British values that unite everyone and makes people happy (and proud) to be here.
I truly have no idea what you mean. I a proud of my heritage, of my Englishness if you like. I'm not proud of all that's been done in the name of that Englishness though. Im not particularly fond of the history of war and conflict, the Crusades, the Imperialism, the racism, the discrimination, the hooliganism, the lager louts. We have much to be proud of but til we clean up our own back yard I don't think we can talk about anyone else's. the Asian communities for example are far more family orientated and much closer than we are, they have what we had in those war days, a good close community and they guard it strongly. They very likely look at how we lost that and think to themselves, if THAT'S what happens, im not being a part of that. Sad that we all get written off in the same way but you know, some of us do that right back at them I guess
You cannot and should not stop pluralism, but at the same time, we should ask ourselves: 'what is it that we like most about Britain that make us want to serve the country in some way?'
Thats more like it, we should all in this country be remembering what we LIKE about being British/English, whether natively British or not, surely there were good reasons those families came here. They should hang on to those things and remind their children of them and what they left behind. Im not saying anyone should be grateful for being ALLOWED to be here, but you know what, I'm grateful I was born here, why shouldn't anyone else be?
This is a more productive mindset as opposed to: 'what has my country ever done for me?' That's how you start developing unity and possibly, even the patriotism that's been missing.
Thats actually a good point, a far wiser man than any of us here once said "ask NOT what your country can do for YOU, but what YOU can do for your country" I totally agree with that man. Such a shame someone else didnt and killed that nice man off, and his little brother (his son many years later too I believe)
Thank you. Namaste. Good Luck.
** BLACK HORSES TRUE AND ONLY FORUM WIFE!!**
(I hate JATE and SATE threads and those stupid mills and boons wannabe stories)
Originally posted by zwaraaaa: "British" is ambiguous, here are some of my definitions.
Being British in the logical sense is having a passport and obeying the law. You could do your upmost to destroy Britain within the constraints of the law and in effect you are still British in this sense.
Being British in the utilitarian sense means wanting to make these islands a pleasant productive place to live to ensure civilisation as a whole progresses. Our character who wants to do his upmost to destroy Britain within the constraints of the law is not British in the utilitarian sense.
Then there is being British in the ethnic sense which could be broadly defined as having the same features as people living here 1000 years ago and to have been (or be) born and raised here.
There is also being British in the cultural sense. If a custom was developped in Britain or has existed here on a large scale it is British in that sense.
OMG This is the most logical post you have ever made.
I particularly like this
quote:
Being British in the utilitarian sense means wanting to make these islands a pleasant productive place to live to ensure civilisation as a whole progresses.
That to me is what being the native of ANY country or organisation, any group at ALL is about.
Thank you. Namaste. Good Luck.
** BLACK HORSES TRUE AND ONLY FORUM WIFE!!**
(I hate JATE and SATE threads and those stupid mills and boons wannabe stories)
We do now, as do they. Migrants were not helped in the past, but we learned from those mistakes and now do alot more to aid integration and to help migrants settle in than we ever did, and a hell of alot more than the US still does. See above
