quote:

Originally posted by Andrew Y:
I would call Mel Gibson an English hater rather than british hater.
The patriotism of the USA has meant that people have given their government a lot of wiggle room with their freedoms. Some in yanksvilee consider the questioning of the government as unpatriotic.
I would rather we are where we are than more like the americans.
And as a Scotsman it becomes hard to feel British when people so often use the words England and Britain as the same thing (foreigners do this a lot).
Why should we be patriotic? Nationalism is highly narrowminded.

You have the right to be either or both surely, you are Scots and/or British just as I am English but also belong to Britain and believe in being British also. I don't identify with being European so much though.

With foreigners, I guess you just have to excuse them, its ignorance really and as we are well known for our ignorance of foreign language, etiquette and customs whilst abroad, I guess we shouldn't complain too loudly. Most foreigners do alot better than we actually do in this regard (I'm speaking generally of course, you may well be an exception as I like to think I am to what's seen as being the rule)

krymsk babe

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America has expended a lot of effort in making people feel American.

In what way? Segregation in America is in living memory, as is not being allowed to sit on a bus and such like. We certainly in this country don't have a whiter than white record (pardon the pun, it was sincerely unintended)but I think we have been far more welcoming and less discriminatory in this sense. Most racism has been alot more covert; not better I give you, but in being covert it must have been understood to be wrong whereas the US obviously believed they were correct to segregate just as they did in S.A as they dis it so openly and used harsh methods to implement their disgusting laws

America is a country that turns Irish/Greeks/Africans/Turks etc, etc, into Americans pretty quickly. It does not see them as eternal foreigners.

It could be said that segregation exists within living memory in Britain too! Ever heard of black Christians told not to return to a 'white' church but look for one that was specifically for their 'own people'? It's almost a cliched story among elderly West Indians in this country. What about racial violence in the 50s and 60s.

We're not like the Deep South of contemporary history. But is that what we want to compare ourselves with?

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The British have never really done this with the various migrant groups that have come here.

I disagree, we have provided accommodation, benefits, education, language classes. I am pretty certain these are not things readily available to migrants in the US. We have many community projects set up to aid integration but many migrants don't want to go, there are many outreach programs in place but if people don't want to be a part of it, you cant force them to be and so we have this situation now of separate segregated pockets of society. it is very obvious now in my area which was once a close knit mining community in the west end of Newcastle. We have a predominantly white area, then there's a little tiny pocket with white/Arabic/Asian majority householders, a little further up the road its ALL Asian, a little further again and its an African community, then you get to the more expensive houses again, guess who lives there? You guesses it, mostly white though there are quite a few Asian families buying up there now too.
People will only belong if they want to, nothing you put in place will force the issue for them,

I'm not sure why immigrants should be blamed automatically if white people don't want to live among them. If the natives don't want to live in an area, is it surprising that incomers have to?

It's great that people are helped to settle. After all, the alternative is shanty towns. But it's been said that giving people a house isn't the equivalent of making people feel at home. What about extending the hand of friendship? What about helping people to understand the culture a bit better? There's never really been that.

It's been said that the English, unlike the French (who have problems of their own), don't really expect foreigners to be 'just like them'. What the English want (or have until recently) is for immigrants just to keep themselves to themselves, quietly, and not cause too much trouble, not to try and impose themselves on communities that don't want them.

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For those who are visibly different it can be hard to shake of the shackles when society looks at you and sees difference rather than Britishness, even after several generations.

Thats not a problem specific to English society, and I have to say I kinda begrudge you saying it is. It happens world wide, its actually alot better here than most other countries though we have a long way to go before people truly become colour blind I accept, I don't think that those who are doing alot to change things should be criticised and go unrecognised when in comparison to the greater community of the world, they are actually doing a HELL of alot to help the situation, bad feeling toward immigrants right now is based on more than skin colour, its too simplistic to suggest its all about melanin. I don't excuse discrimination, I loathe it in any form, but there's more to it than that and there always was

I didn't actually say that Britain was a horrible country, although you seem to think I meant that. Going back to France, I think we are probably further along than they are in treating people like normal human beings who just want to use their skills to earn a living and be respected in society. But I'm not sure what good it does asserting the obvious fact that other countries have problems too. Does that make our problems okay?

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Immigrants put up with this treatment, but their British offspring don't. It can seem easier to isolate yourself than to face constant rejection, tokenism or the sense that you're meant to feel grateful to someone for letting you live in what's supposed to be your own country - Britain!

I again disagree, I know members of my husbands family who have made no effort to be a part of British culture. they refuse to learn to speak the language of the country they have called home for the past 30years, thats a prettypoor show imo, then they expect the NHS to pay for interpreters when they go to G.P's or hospital appointments. i personally dont think thats on, whilst they learn the language I agree to helping them as much as we can to get by, but 30years of interpreters fees, come on, thats unreasonable. They have never spoken to English people because they simply cant. they are unable to help their children with school work, they cant attend parents evenings. Whats to be done? Spend more money on more schemes to try and draw them out of their shells? They wont go, they wont integrate under any circumstance, they have not experienced rejection or any of those things, they have never even tried, i have asked them why, they say its because they dont need to. They have all they need and can cope quite nicely. I find this appalling. I live abroad, in italy, within a few weeks I had picked up enough to get by, my conversational level by 3 months of living there made me totally independant. I find it a little rude to do otherwise. i dont even like to holiday ina countryI dont speak the language of. i think everyone should learn at LEAST the niceties like pleaee, thank you and what is considered good and bad manners, coz when i go to their house (in England remember) Im expected to observe THEIR customs and manners, in mine, I still have to observe theirs if they visit. I just dont get that

People should learn the language of the country they live in. But the British aren't the best people to be grumbling about that, though! What about other members of the family helping these elderly people to learn the language? Why didn't anyone encourage them early on, explain how useful it would be?

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And why assume that British terrorists don't feel British? Maybe they feel too British - so British that they feel right to impose themselves violently on British society.

This makes no sense at all. Are you saying they feel by imposing this violence indiscriminately on society, they are doing what they consider to be the British thing, living the British life? Carrying out their British rights? I don't follow this logic at all

Well, I was just thinking that someone really disengaged in Britain would do nothing at all; would be uninterested in British foreign policy, would be uninterested in any real or imagined moral decline in Britain. They would just live in their own little community quietly, leaving the indigenous people and their morality and political doings well alone.

Good end to this thread. Couldn't have put it better myself

It is necessary that both groups have equal status, have personal interaction, engage in cooperative activities to achieve collective goals, and it should be considered the norm for the groups to interact.

Taken from: Aronson, E., Blaney, N., Stephan, C., Sikes, J., & Snapp, M. (1978). The jigsaw classroom. Beverly Hills, CA: Sage.

quote:

Originally posted by zwaraaaa:
No Englishman can say he wasn't touched by Braveheart "FREEEEEEEEEEDDDDDOOOOOOOOOOMMMMMM!!!

I hope this post was meant humourously. Braveheart is perhaps the most explicitly ANTI-English film ever made.

But there we have it. So many people are utterly unable to distinguish between 'English' and 'British'. The sun continues to set on the latter with only Westminster politicians, sectarian bigots in the north of Ireland and the west of Scotland and immigrant communities who do not wish to identify themselves as English continuing to cling to it.

The sooner the 18th century fabrication known as the 'UK' is done away with and the legitimate states of England, Scotland, Wales and (a preferably united) Ireland are restored the better for everyone.

Bla bla bla bla bla, since when did you become so retentive about nationalism?

Take another look at my super wonderful definitions of what it means to be British which roast bull and krymsk babe themselves complimented due to it's sheer awesomeness.

""British" is ambiguous, here are some of my definitions.

Being British in the logical sense is having a passport and obeying the law. You could do your upmost to destroy Britain within the constraints of the law and in effect you are still British in this sense.

Being British in the utilitarian sense means wanting to make these islands a pleasant productive place to live to ensure civilisation as a whole progresses. Our character who wants to do his upmost to destroy Britain within the constraints of the law is not British in the utilitarian sense.

Then there is being British in the ethnic sense which could be broadly defined as having the same features as people living here 1000 years ago and to have been (or be) born and raised here.

There is also being British in the cultural sense. If a custom was developped in Britain or has existed here on a large scale it is British in that sense."

Only the logical definition of England has been erased. Why should there be an English passport?

Because there should be an English state to embody the English nation (the same applies to Scotland, Ireland, France, Italy etc etc etc).

And I'm afraid your 'logical' definition of Britishness is faulty because the law in England is specifically English law - there is no such thing as British law.

Something you and others appear not to understand is that a lot of people now reject the label of 'Britishness' and regard it as having usurped the real national identities of Englishness, Scottishness and Welshness. It is now being cast off - Scotland has elected a nationalist government which seeks Scottish independence. When that happens (and it is a matter of time) 'Britain' will be dead and a lot of people will be compelled to undertake a serious re-examination of what they thought their 'national' identity was.

I regard myself as being just English. Nothing more nothing less. And more and more people are coming round to this point of view. Your definitions of Britishness are charming but I am afraid that they are not relevant to me because I don't regard myself as British.

Monsieur Kurgan, ok, with British gone, then the countries Scotland England, Wales and Ireland (united), will come under European Union, and with no border restrictions, it wont be a case of needing a visa to travel to other countries, but taxation will be used more towards each nation.
hmm now ive forgotten the point i was trying to make.
Anyhow good to see you back.

Ah the joys of globalisation!! How is everyone these days??

Whoever invented the term 'Melting pot', was obviously a Moron