So you have decided the discussion is over WELL HOW WRONG CAN YOU BE Malkie

Technically the discussion is over because you are unable to adequately prove that hypnosis actually has any benefit.

However, you don't understand why it cannot be proven, so there is no debate to be had.

If I were able to give you hypnotic comfort and pain relief would you decline because you didn’t understand how it worked

Again you bring up that I dismiss it because I don't understand it, and yet again I need to remind you that my issue with hypnosis is a lack of solid evidence. I don't need to know how insulin injections work to know that they are what a diabetic needs.

before he administered the drug you would want or demand some proof of its efficacy

No, because I know for a fact that any medicine has been through a stringent double-blind, placebo controlled clinical trial before being licensed.

You are unable to offer the same evidence for hypnosis, hence modern medicine over rules it.

If you had researched the subject fully you would be aware that tests for the hypnotic phenomenon and its many benefits to the therapeutic / recovery process have been performed and proven.

Super Please provide references to support this claim. Peer-reviewed scientific or medical journals are the only thing I'll read. Mumbo-jumbo propaganda websites are totally irrevelant.

Seriously, I would honestly like to review any studies which have been performed to try and get a better understanding of the literature.

My own research has provided the following studies :-

This first article suggests that pain and hypnosis is entirely a placebo effect

quote:

The cognitive modulation of pain: hypnosis- and placebo-induced analgesia
Progress in Brain Research, Volume 150, 2005, Pages 251-269

This second article points out the huge degree of methodological issues with assessing hypnosis - ie what I've been saying all along.

quote:

Hypnosis for Procedure-Related Pain and Distress in Pediatric Cancer Patients: A Systematic Review of Effectiveness and Methodology Related to Hypnosis Interventions
Journal of Pain and Symptom Management, Volume 31, Issue 1, January 2006, Pages 70-84

This third article found no benefit from hypnosis or any other alternative therapy for labour pains (possibly the most painful experience possible)

quote:

Complementary and alternative medicine for labor pain: A systematic review
American Journal of Obstetrics and Gynecology, Volume 191, Issue 1, July 2004, Pages 36-44

This fourth study rather well documents the "expectation" (placebo) effect

quote:

Neural circuitry underlying pain modulation: expectation, hypnosis, placebo
Trends in Cognitive Sciences, Volume 7, Issue 5, May 2003, Pages 197-200

The list goes on and on.



2% successful therefore drug therapy for smoking cessation is 98% unsuccessful

um, I disagree. The following publication suggests a 50% success rate.

quote:

Effectiveness of a large-scale distribution programme of free nicotine patches: a prospective evaluation
The Lancet, Volume 365, Issue 9474, 28 May 2005-3 June 2005, Pages 1849-1854

So does this article :-

quote:

The effectiveness of nicotine patch and nicotine lozenge in very heavy smokers
Journal of Substance Abuse Treatment, Volume 28, Issue 1, January 2005, Pages 49-55
Saul Shiffman, Michael E. Di Marino and Janine L. Pillitteri

Both studies are appropriately controlled, and interestingly, both reports point out that a large proportion of the unsuccessful patients failed because of non-compliance - ie they didn't use the patches regularly or properly.

Malkie and his demands for scientific proof. The drugs he believes in are 'scientifically' developed but most fail when tried in the real world.

Thetrancestate, you will soon realise that it is useless trying to reason with him. He wouldn't accept the existence of anything that contradicts his beliefs if it jumped up and bit him.

Malkie gives various examples of research into hypnosis which he found:

The cognitive modulation of pain: hypnosis- and placebo-induced analgesia
Progress in Brain Research, Volume 150, 2005, Pages 251-269 NOT DOUBLE-BLIND PLACEBO. JUST A REVIEW. BUT IT SAYS:' Nowadays, there is compelling evidence that there is a poor relationship between the incoming sensory input and the resulting pain sensation. Signals coming from the peripheral nervous system undergo a complex modulation by cognitive, affective, and motivational processes when they enter the central nervous system.'

YES, HYPNOSIS CHANGES THE EFFECT THAT THESE SIGNALS HAVE. AS DOES THE EXPECTATIONS IN THE PLACEBO EFFECT. HYPNOTIC AND PLACEBO SUGGESTIONS - ACTUAL OR IMPLIED - AFFECT THE SUBJECT'S BELIEFS, WHICH, IN TURN, CAUSE PHSIOLOGICAL EFFECTS.

---------------------
Hypnosis for Procedure-Related Pain and Distress in Pediatric Cancer Patients: A Systematic Review of Effectiveness and Methodology Related to Hypnosis Interventions
Journal of Pain and Symptom Management, Volume 31, Issue 1, January 2006, Pages 70-84

THIS SAYS: 'Studies report positive results, including statistically significant reductions in pain and anxiety/distress, but a number of methodological limitations were identified. Systematic searching and appraisal has demonstrated that hypnosis has potential as a clinically valuable intervention for procedure-related pain and distress in pediatric cancer patients. Further research into the effectiveness and acceptability of hypnosis for pediatric cancer patients is recommended.'
------------------------------

Complementary and alternative medicine for labor pain: A systematic review
American Journal of Obstetrics and Gynecology, Volume 191, Issue 1, July 2004, Pages 36-44

THIS ONE REVIEWED 12 TRIALS, ONLY 2 OF WHICH WERE FOR HYPNOSIS. NONE WERE DOUBLE-BLIND PLACEBO CONTROLLED DEMANDED BY MALKIE.
-------------------------------------
Neural circuitry underlying pain modulation: expectation, hypnosis, placebo
Trends in Cognitive Sciences, Volume 7, Issue 5, May 2003, Pages 197-200

THIS SAYS: 'Expectation plays an important role not only in its modulation of acute and chronic pain, but also in other disorders which are characterized by certain expectation (specific phobias) or uncertain expectation (generalized anxiety disorder) of aversive events'

AS I UNDERSTAND IT, HYPNOSIS CHANGES EXPECTATION AT A SUBCONSCIOUS LEVEL. SUGGESTIONS ARE GIVEN THAT THERE WILL BE NO PAIN. THE SUBJECT WILL ACCEPT THESE SUGGESTIONS AND WILL HAVE AN EXPECTATION OF NO PAIN.
--------------------------------------

I made a quick search and found:

Somatosensory event-related potential and autonomic activity to varying pain reduction cognitive strategies in hypnosis.

Clin Neurophysiol. 2001 Aug;112(8):1475-85

SHOWS THAT HIGHLY HYPNOTISABLE SUBJECTS EXPERIENCE HYPNOTIC ANALGESIA.
-----------------------------
Hypnotic analgesia reduces R-III nociceptive reflex: further evidence concerning the multifactorial nature of hypnotic analgesia.

Pain. 1995 Jan;60(1):39-47.

THIS ALSO SHOWS THAT HYPNOTICE ANALGESIA EXISTS, PROBABLY CAUSED BY CHANGES IN A NOCICEPTIVE SPINAL REFLEX.
-----------------------------------
Hypnosis and clinical pain.

Psychol Bull. 2003 Jul;129(4):495-521.

THIS SAYS: 'Randomized controlled studies with clinical populations indicate that hypnosis has a reliable and significant impact on acute procedural pain and chronic pain conditions.'
--------------------------------
Focused analgesia and generalized relaxation produce differential hypnotic analgesia in response to ascending stimulus intensity

Int J Psychophysiol. 2004 Apr;52(2):187-96.

THIS RANDOMISED, CONTROLLED TRIAL ALSO FOUND THAT HYPNOTIC ANALGESIA WORKS.
-----------------------------------
Clinical hypnosis modulates functional magnetic resonance imaging signal intensities and pain perception in a thermal stimulation paradigm.

Reg Anesth Pain Med. 2004 Nov-Dec;29(6):549-56.

MORE EVIDENCE FOR THE VALIDITY OF HYPNOSIS.

MartinGBUK thanks for your support as you say malkie tries very hard to impress everyone with his argument but that is all it is argument for arguments sake. I thought the idea of this forum was to enter into discussion about the use of hypnosis in the modern world. It is probably because I am not a doctor and do not come from a scientific background that malkie chooses to exercise his obviously fragile ego. By showing everyone he can argue so eloquently. He also picks his answers carefully and avoids any direct question that requires a yes or no answer

malkie “You will only find what you are looking for”

Look at the bigger picture we don’t understand everything that goes on in he world but we have no alterative but to live in it. We try to make the world we live in a better place, even against insurmountable odds such as close mindedness and over opinionated suppressive intellectuals

Martin - what were the controls used for hypnosis in the studies you posted ?

My question is don't different people respond to hypnosis differently? In fact some people don't respond to it at all. Is that right?

AHA!

No way I was going to read that whole post but I managed to find this sentence:

quote:

The effect was bigger in clinical patients than in experimental subjects, and especially large among those of high hypnotizability.

Low hypnotizability, high hypnotizability, moderate... etc. What level of hypnotizability would a patient wake up during surgery, or only partly block out the pain...

No way I'm reading that entire post but I notice you use the word 'hynotizability'. Low, high, moderate hypnotizability; what level of hypnotizability would a patient wake up halfway through major surgery under hypnotic analgesia? ...Or which group of hypnotizable patients only partially block out the pain?

Didn't mean to post twice then but my connection is a bit odd so thought the first one hadn't posted

a clinical patient is offerd a suggestion for improving their well being the desire for improvement is greater than a non clinical subject who is only trying to prove the effectivness so hypnotizability is in states from light to high as 1 asprin will give x relief 3 will give y relief the whole bottle will kill you hypnosis can not be overdossed because you are self dependant and not drug dependant just as some drugs may work well on me but penecilin would have a verry different effect on other members of my family so lets test all drugs on all people for eficacy and if some of us die well ok we are all going to die anyway

Dude try using full stops once in a while. That post makes no sense!

quote:

Originally posted by thetrancestate:
the desire for improvement is greater than a non clinical subject who is only trying to prove the effectivness so hypnotizability is in states from light to high

Well surely thats a clear problem with hypnosis then. Even among patients with a great "desire for improvement', there would still be indiviual differences. The mind is a really powerful complex thing how can you be sure a patient won't just snap out of hypnosis under major surgery?

Once more with punctuation and my apologies,.!
A clinical patient is offered a suggestion for improving their well being. While a non clinical subject is only given suggestion for pain control. The desire for improvement is greater in the clinical patient because of the desire to get well. Where as a non clinical subject is only trying to prove the effectiveness. So hypnotisability can be measured and used in states from light to high

Pharmaceutically 1 aspirin will give X relief, 3 aspirin will give X x 3 relief and the whole bottle will kill you. As some drugs may work well on me, but penicillin would have a very different even a fatal effect on other members of my family (fact). So let’s test all drugs on all people for efficacy and if some die well that’s ok we are all going to die anyway.

Hypnosis can not be overdosed because you become self dependant throughout the whole process and not drug dependant. With regard to coming out of hypnosis in the middle of a procedure why would you want to bearing in mind that the client/patient has chosen hypnosis as his preferred method of pain relief why would he want to change to drugs half way through?

Pharmaceutically 1 aspirin will give X relief, 3 aspirin will give X x 3 relief

I'm sorry, biology doesn't work like that. You have therapeutic windows, and degrees of pharmaceutical intervention. Your suggestions grossly over simplifies the science of medicine.


Hypnosis can not be overdosed because you become self dependant throughout the whole process and not drug dependant

Really ?

If hypnosis is powerful enough to stop people feeling pain (which is an autonmic effect), what's to prevent it accidentally stopping people's hearts or breathing (both autonomic effects) ?

any evidence you need is right in ront of you now

Hypnosis does not stop pain it allows “the weak minded” to control how they choose to interpret the signals malkie the bottom line is choice drugs or no drugs?

Will you reconsider your position now malkie ?

Dr Beard maybe just the begining if you check out my website www.mindwideopen.co.uk there is a lot more information on hypnosis

malkie seems noticable by his abcence

Almost by chance we read this in the daily mail today


Drug companies are inventing diseases to sell more of their products, it has been claimed. Scientists have accused major pharmaceutical firms of "medicalising" problems like high cholesterol or the symptoms of the menopause in a bid to increase profits.
Experts from around the world will meet in Australia today to discuss what they have labelled "disease-mongering".
The group, which includes experts from Britain, will gather in Newcastle, New South Wales, where researchers have been examining the issue. David Henry and Ray Moynihan, of Newcastle University, claim the industry is exaggerating conditions and turning them into something more
Female sexual dysfunction, attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD) and "restless legs" syndrome have all been promoted by the pharmaceutical industry in the hope of selling more drugs, they say.
High cholesterol and osteoporosis-are being described as diseases in their own right, the researchers claim, and turning healthy people into patients. In turn, this wastes precious resources and can cause medically-induced harm.
Drugs prescribed for 'shyness'
Even shyness is routinely presented as a "social anxiety disorder" resulting in the person being prescribed anti-depressants.
In the case of male sexual dysfunction, the researchers say, Viagra is promoted as not only a genuine treatment for erectile dysfunction but also a lifestyle improver. The two men make their claims in the Public Library of Science Medicine journal.
They accuse drug companies of funding disease-awareness campaigns through the media that are more about selling drugs than helping or educating the public.
"Like the marketing strategies that drive it, disease-mongering poses a global challenge to those interested in public health, demanding in turn a global response," they say.
Mr Moynihan and Mr Henry say that, in their view, disease mongering is the selling of sickness that widens the boundaries of illness and grows markets for those who sell and deliver treatments.
"It is exemplified most explicitly by many pharmaceutical industry funded disease-awareness campaigns, more often designed to sell drugs than to illuminate or to inform or educate about the prevention of illness or the maintenance of health," they add. Conference organisers say they will try to draw a line between "market-driven exercises and legitimate disease-awareness programmes". 'Miracle solutions'
Drugs companies hit back last night. GlaxoSmithKline said: "We pride ourselves in providing miracle solutions to the health care needs of people every day.
"We utterly refute any suggestion that we would in any way hype or overplay the very real needs of patients that are treated all over the world.
"One of the exciting things about medical science is that we are finding new solutions to ailments or problems people have, and this is something good we can offer." Pfizer, which makes Viagra, said: "We would refute accusations that the pharmaceutical industry is medicalising society. Treatments that can make serious and potentially life-threatening conditions better should surely be welcomed.
"Pfizer would only promote prescription medicines to health care professionals, and only in line with what licensing bodies have outlined, for them to use their clinical judgment."

any evidence you need is right in ront of you now

Where ? I asked you some pretty simple questions, would you be kind enough to furnish us with some straight answers ?

Hypnosis does not stop pain it allows “the weak minded” to control how they choose to interpret the signals

So similarly, what's prevent the "weeak minded" accidentally telling their brain to stop receiving signals from their heart or lungs, resulting in those organs stopping working ?

Will you reconsider your position now malkie ?

Based on what ? You haven't provided any clarity.

Dr Graeme Beard - I'm going to make an assumption and guess that you are a Dr because you have a PhD in psychology, rather than an MD. I'm guessing as a little research suggests you are a "professional" hypotherapist. Can you elaborate please ?

If you do hold a PhD I assume you must have published some of your work, can you elaborate on that please ?

Many thanks.

I don't beleive in hypnosis at all. I know people who have been hypnotised and they told me that if you want to stop it you can. So its something for only weak minded fools....