Add another thought, it would surely have to be a very brave hypnotist to rely on the placebo effect, when they are watching a man get his stomach sliced open in the knowledge it was going out on live television.

Who made you judge??

I appreciate you need certain proofs for you to take them seriously. But who gives you the right to judge and then spout that opinion to people who clearly no more. I dont doubt that you would correct even Rolls Royce for their jet engines if given half the chance, I do doubt you have the knowledge to do so. Thats the problem here, some people on this forum would like to hear from others with opinions that may differ from your own, have some level of basis and backing with real life experience, your commenting on TV shows. :|

I didnt see the setup of many things, I didnt see the tele invented etc etc etc, I take it for granted that they work. You use this example to say people dont have any right coming back to your points, but to stand up and say that its all false and I dont know about the subject nor need to, cos you lot have to prove it to my standard from my subject. Hmmmm no, again a typical opinion from a scientific type, but often science has to catch up with information many of us would take for granted, just science is looking to prove it. Thats fine, proof is always ideal, but dont dismiss everything that you cannot prove, especially based on your own comments that you dont know everything. No you dont, so make less judgements maybe.

Would like more information on the Asthma study mind?? Are you saying it has nothing to do with airborne contaminants or merely that some level of mind control is taking place. Again as said, could do with more info on study. Also do you agree with skin prick tests to test for allergies??

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i.e. that the subconscious mind is the thing that is overcoming the pain

Indeed, and as the experiment using MRI scans showed, it also has the power to register pain in the appropriate areas of the brain when no pain is being inflicted.

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Originally posted by wtf:
When it comes to placebo effect, if it is the placebo effect that is working is that not the very same thing that the hypnotists are claiming? i.e. that the subconscious mind is the thing that is overcoming the pain, by arguing for the power of placebo aren't you in fact arguing the very same case as the hypnotists in that the mind is a very powerful thing in terms of overcoming physical sensation?

Thats a very interesting point.

I think that most of you are being beastly to poor Malkie. It is disgraceful behaviour. He can't help the way he is. Perhaps hynotherapy could help him.


Malkie, it's true that the likes of David Copperfield trick people. Very often, people like that use techniques similar to hypnotic techniques. In the Statue of Liberty trick, though, he just used camera techniques, I think. People who have successful hypnotherapy know that it helped them. They know that they didn't feel pain and they didn't feel pain because someone told them that they wouldn't. This is not the same as the placebo effect. A hypnotherapist has to tailor their approach to the subject they are treating. They rely on feedback from the subject to know how the process is going. And they adapt their method when they see that they need to. A placebo is just a pilll that doesn't adapt. If the hypnotherapist just goes on doing the same thing, the subject won't be helped. The subject often tells the hypnotherapist, subconsciously, what needs to be done. This is where the feedback is used. If one approach isn't working, another, more appropriate one will be. As I said, it would be very difficult to conduct a double-blind, randomised and placebo controlled test. Hypnotherapy is a dynamic process where, at any given time, a change might need to be made. Placebos or drugs can't do that. They act or don't act and go right on acting or not acting.

This is my understanding of hypno. I hope, Thetrancestate, that I have not made too many errors. I am trying to explain to certain people why a rigorous scientific method would be difficult to use in studying its effects. Just because that would be difficult does not change the fa

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Perhaps hynotherapy could help him.

Only if he believes it could ...

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I appreciate you need certain proofs for you to take them seriously

Thank you. That's all I'm asking for, and also some evidence that this can't accidentally be harmful.

I'd prefer that to the sarcasm and insults. Again, I must stress that the more you attack me, the weaker your arugements appear.

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but to stand up and say that its all false

I haven't said it's false, I've said it's impossible to prove, and impossible to separate from placebo.

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Would like more information on the Asthma study mind?? Are you saying it has nothing to do with airborne contaminants or merely that some level of mind control is taking place. Again as said, could do with more info on study. Also do you agree with skin prick tests to test for allergies??

What do you mean "agree" with skin prick tests. Someone with allergies will always test positive, someone without allergies will always test negative.

The study is :- Woodcock et al., NEJM 2003, 349, p221.

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Indeed, and as the experiment using MRI scans showed, it also has the power to register pain in the appropriate areas of the brain when no pain is being inflicted.

I assume you mean fMRI, as MRI can't do that. Do you realise fMRI is in it's infancy, and yet to be properly validated ?

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aren't you in fact arguing the very same case as the hypnotists in that the mind is a very powerful thing in terms of overcoming physical sensation?

Absolutely, yes. The mind is a very complex thing, and we really don't understand it. My point is that I'm unsure that a hypnotist is genuinely 'tapping-into' this and controlling it.

Studies are what's needed, but sadly we can't validate those properly.

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Hypnotherapy is a dynamic process where, at any given time, a change might need to be made. Placebos or drugs can't do that.

Wrong.

The placebo effect is totally dynamic because it starts happening before the stimulus occurs, and increases in intensity as any experiment continues. (Pretty good recent data on dopamine in the brain causing the placebo effect, and changing over time).

Furthermore drugs can change over time. For example 'use-dependent' drugs only have an effect as the body's physiology changes. ie you take the drug, but it only does something when required.

By 'use-dependent' I do not mean that you take them when you need them. I mean that you take them all the time, but they only 'act' pharmacologically if something changes. They they stop working when normality returns.

Specifically I'm referring to certain antiarrhythmia drugs which only act when the heart steps out of sync.

Well tbh I think entering a thread about hypnotism and saying utter mumbo jumbo nonsense doesnt help the replies Malkie. If you had started with the points you are now making, we wouldnt all think youre an antagonistic spammer. You then go on to attack us all for attacking you with sarcasm rather than argueing the point. What point??? The fact that many people dont think its utter mumbo jumbo nonsense. Dont start with such black and white comments and maybe people will suprise you with a better debate.

As for the skin prick tests, I mean do you agree that they work, have any purpose. And to say people with allergies will obviously show a reaction, but how do you know they have that allergy, surely that is the point of the test?

Its in relation to what you were saying about asthma and the mattress (I presume dust mite related), so does this study prove that dust mites arent the reason, or that in some way our own power of our mind is controlling the asthma. Again I would believe that to a certain degree anyway with many illnesses or even accidents. Shock obviously plays a massive part, and with breathing difficulties things can quickly get scarey. I will check out the study though, thx for the link.

It would seem that confusion reigns in an abundance
Malkie you have stated your position and it would appear that you are looking for a scientific answer to an unscientific problem, the problem is believe or not to believe, in anything. Religion is unique and personal to us all because it is a personal belief. But how do we prove the power of religion, if we consider the martyrs of the Philippines who will quite happily nail themselves to a cross to atone for their sins and those of others. they want to experience the pain but to them that pain serves a higher authority and they willingly accept it on that day to create a euphoric effect because that is what they believe but if you ask them to do it at any other time the answer would be no because it serves no purpose. (They have a belief system) the voodoo practitioners can elicit a trance state because they believe when I assisted the girl on the side of the road what were her alternatives, do as I suggest because I can help or suffer. I had sufficient confidence in my ability because I believe. She accepted my belief because it served her purpose to be rid of the pain so. malkie you choose to believe or not. give me some formulaic explanation of why I should believe in the roman catholic church. What is the formula that farther Christmas uses to bring joy and happiness into the lives of children it is not until we the grown ups shatter the belief that the formula is lost forever indeed if it even existed. What formula do you use to prove a bumble bee can’t fly then how do you explain to the bee that he can’t do that? If you want to malkie you can spin this argument faster than a minister on poling day the bottom line is choice and if you believe then shouldn’t you be given a choice formula fact or not

Conclusions Allergen-impermeable covers, as a single intervention for the avoidance of exposure to dust-mite allergen, seem clinically ineffective in adults with asthma.

Very specific conclusion too. I dont think that proves much one way or other though TBH, even though it fulfills every guideline you approve of. It just shows that the covers will not make all the differnce to peoples asthma. But again I dont know what this tells us, sometimes the mdeication wont deal with the serious cases either. Often it is very much shock related and panic based, although it has a kick off with such things as allergies IMO.

But anyway, dont wish to take this thread too much of its original course.

Im glad that we least agree that the mind is not in doubt, and that is has far more power than most of us realise or can use, and to doubt based purely on the fact you cant do or cant prove is scientific bullying.

Do you believe in meditation Malkie?? ie do you believe it has any effect on the mind of the person doing it?

Even if just breathing exercises, do you doubt they can change the way our body functions? I think you are saying you do believe the mind maybe capable of such things, you just doubt anyone can do it?? or do it to someone else?

And no the answer of it cannot be scientifically proven is not good enough for many people, it maybe for you, but many people dont follow science any more blindly than we would religion. Im not saying science is useless, or even one day it wont provide some logical thing that maybe tested to prove such things work. The fact we havent yet does not make everything unproven wrong, and everything you say as right. Sometimes even science corrects itself.

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As for the skin prick tests, I mean do you agree that they work, have any purpose. And to say people with allergies will obviously show a reaction, but how do you know they have that allergy, surely that is the point of the test?

They certainly do work, and are critical in diagnosing allergic versus non-allergic asthma and rhinitis.

Typically SPTs will test against common allergens (pollen, mites, fungi, cats, dogs etc), and also IgE (an antigen). IgE will reveal that they are allergic to something, while the others will show which.

If the SPT is negative then they don't have allergies, and any symptoms are not allergy related.

It's helpful to identity what people are allergic too, as you could find out that a child is allergic to cat only, and the parents have a cat.

Get rid of the cat!

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so does this study prove that dust mites arent the reason, or that in some way our own power of our mind is controlling the asthma.

Clearly people do have an allergy to mites. The point of this study was to see if mattress covers significantly reduced symptoms and people's exposure to mites.

Turns out the covers only have a 20% or so reduction in mite exposure (despite the manufacturer claims), which isn't clinically therapeutic.

However, both groups observed a huge improvement in quality of life and a reduction in symptoms and medication usage.

Clearly this was a placebo effect as they believed the mattress covers was doing something good for them.

To conclude it was all in the mind is wrong. Asthma is brought on by stress, and the patients could have been relaxed thinking they would be feeling better soon, and as a result they actually did start feeling better.

Very interesting study.

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Malkie you have stated your position and it would appear that you are looking for a scientific answer to an unscientific problem

Sorry, but it's 100% scientific. If you claim it alters neurology, and can prevent pain perception then it's a science, hence open to scientific critisism.

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Do you believe in meditation Malkie?? ie do you believe it has any effect on the mind of the person doing it?

Even if just breathing exercises,

Yes, I believe it works, but not because you some how alter your brain function, but because controlled prolonged breathing has benefit in respiratory diseases, and sitting quietly certainly relaxes you and can be therapeutic.

I will always be looking for a scientific explanation, and in cases where a clear therapeutic benefit is seen, there always seems to be a scientific explanation (eg with accupuncture)

Which is fair, but which comes first, the action or the proof??

Do you only believe after it has been proven. While that may make you feel right, it doesnt make everyone else wrong or simple, they just have a little more faith.

Most research is based on mild anecdotal evidence. Often a small pilot study will be performed to see if there is any clear observation worth studying ("stir it and see" is the scientific term ).

Only then would a full scale study with appropriate controls and conditions would be performed.

Other people won't believe mild anecdotal evidence, but they can't refute a proper study, hence it's the only way to get your work accepted.

Thats still avoiding the point.

Youre still seeing it as work, and probably believe in someway that everything has been invented by clever men. Some things are merely discovered, they always existed, and to many your proofs are not required, although will be happy for the proof to follow.

If people are willing to try meditation, accupuncture, hypnotherapy, I would suggest its not the only way that these things are accepted, although I would say its a large part of why we go so far to prove something, adding layer and layer of credibility to something. If we cant scientifically prove it, its simpler to say its flawed or nonsense. Its just not the case, no more than its accurate to say that science has all the answers. If that was the case, why do people still bother with it??

Ohhhh there are some things you dont know. Indeed.

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If we cant scientifically prove it, its simpler to say its flawed or nonsense.

Simpler, yes.

But that wouldn't advance science. As long as there are people willing to attack unanswered questions there will continue to be advancements.

Hypnosis is in a difficult situation because it's impossible to disect and prove.

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If that was the case, why do people still bother with it??

that's obvious - we don't have all the answers yet.

Agreed, we dont. So does that make Hypnosis wrong or nonsense?? or merely unproven.

Again maybe think about the starting sentance, the innocence act is killing me.

And whos to say the answered questions have been answered correctly or accurately enough. They could continue research and find more accurate results, or new results, or not look cos they think they have the answer already, and resulting in a big miss.

Theres always more questions, the point is until you prove it to your satisfaction, the rest is nonsense. Well, very scientific, but I find that path as nonsensical, and so less hopeful or helpful.

Dear Malkie
The proof I offer is in the suggested reading I have quoted. I have come to the conclusion that you are not really interesed in proof but more in your on ability to keep an argument going. It is good to see that you have found something that you are good at and I look forward to your continued contributions. If you were willing to expand your knowlege with the same vigour you attach to this forum you may find that much of what you seek has been researched to the academic level of proof that you require.

I have already passed comment on the reading that you suggested. Furthermore, the author of one of those books agrees that hypnosis doesn't work.