quote:

I see you are continuing to troll malkie even in other topics

So someone expresses skeptisism and they are a troll ?

You are so defensive over the things you promote it's clear you are approaching a occult-like status.


Rather than continue name calling (which is all you ever do), how about you try and address people's concerns ?

malkie

What name calling are you talking about? it seems you don’t even have a sense of humour

Hope i have not upset you wouldn’t want to do that now would i?

Calling someone a 'troll' is name calling.

To be honest your name calling doesn't bother me in the slightest, it barely even evokes a from me. It highlights your childness, but that's a matter for your concern.

It's interesting that when backed into a corner you resort to this immature behaviour - what are you afraid of ? Scared that your beloved hypnosis might be less than genuine ?

quote:

Originally posted by thetrancestate:
well malkie You lost your argument with your opening line “utter mumbo jumbo nonsense”. Malkie you are a fool but the worst kind an educated fool if you promise not to continue encroaching upon the professionalism of a well established effective and proven therapy, I wont come to your place of work and advise you which end of the broom to push

I thought you were supposed to be a trained professional ? If that's true, then why have you also resorted to name calling rather than address my simple points ?

Surely if you are a trained expert you would be privy to knowledge which would answer the concerns that I have.

So far no one has provided a single shred of evidence, apart from a few anecodtal accounts which don't count for anything.

In the absence of any proof, my assertation that this is nothing more than “utter mumbo jumbo nonsense”.

If you disagree (which I assume you do), then lets see the solid evidence which supports your claims.

I still think that there is some misunderstanding here about what hypnosis is. What is it that you actually want tested? The "hypnotic state" is a naturally occuring low frequency brainwave functionality which you go into hundreds of times a day, like with the example of being absorbed in a film you are watching. The state can be scientifically measured by EEG - which some hypnotist's use to provide precise guidance as to their patient's depth of trance (here is a link to a 5Hz over 30Hz brainwave patternEEG pics). When your conscious mind's activity slows down this is the time when you are receptive to suggestion for positive change etc. etc. It really is as basic as this but so many people skip past the basic stuff looking for complex stuff that isn't there.

You said that you recognised experiencing the hypnotic state (when absorbed in a film) so surely you don't need tests to prove this as you have experienced it. Or is it that you want to measure something less direct, as in the application of hypnosis for pain control?

quote:

When your conscious mind's activity slows down this is the time when you are receptive to suggestion for positive change etc. etc.

this is the part that needs proving - or rather than anyone can evoke change

Malkie are you replying to people just to annoy them?It seems most of your comments are just to provoke a reaction when obviously this is not 'mumbo jumbo'.

quote:

Originally posted by herniahitchman:
Malkie are you replying to people just to annoy them?It seems most of your comments are just to provoke a reaction when obviously this is not 'mumbo jumbo'.

Obviously ? Then where's the proof ?

quote:

Originally posted by malkie:

quote:

When your conscious mind's activity slows down this is the time when you are receptive to suggestion for positive change etc. etc.

this is the part that needs proving - or rather than anyone can evoke change

Malkie, how about you propose your ideas on a study that would look into this. I as a scientist haven't the faintest idea as to how a study can be devised that would completely clarify how the unconscious can be manipulated in this way. However, I beleive the evidence can only come from testimonies of people who've been helped or influenced by hypnosis of which there are vast numbers.

That's my issue AD, I don't think an appropriate study/trial *can* be performed. When dealing with anything cognative you cannot rule out a placebo, and you cannot seperate the effect of the 'hypnosis' from the effect of speaking to a 'specialist' who promises to cure you.

If it helps some people then great! I'm all for it - I just don't think it has much scientific merit.

Its also interesting that with some illnesses and conditions people develop depression. The depression can cause their illness to worsen, or appear (to them) to worsen.

Telling somebody that we are going to try to cure them in an unorthodox or "new" way may trigger a lift from their depression and they will instantly start to feel better.

quote:

Originally posted by malkie:
this is the part that needs proving - or rather than anyone can evoke change

Ok, with you now. I actually believe you would appear to be someone who would really benefit from hypnotherapy as you have a strong block by your conscious mind that won't believe anything without 100% proof. This over-ruling by your conscious mind means you are probably held back from achieving alot more than is actually possible. So hypnosis could temporarilly knock that steel wall down which could create the changes you can't believe possible at the moment. Being inflexible or closed-minded is not beneficial in any way, if you allow yourself to be more open-minded you will find life a lot easier and have some surprising new, pleasant experiences.

By the way, hi to herniahitchman and thanks for coming on here, you will have made a huge contribution to the re-education of a society brought up or 'hypnotised' into thinking hypnosis is all mumbo-jumbo

So, because I don't blindly accept what you say I'm "close-minded", and "inflexible" ? Seriously, where do you get off ?

You need to appreciate that many people will be skeptical due to the absence of any reasonable proof on the effectiveness of your techniques. Calling me close-minded for not blinding accepting your nonsense just shows you are being defensive over your techniques, and are unhappy to entertain criticism.

Give me some evidence, and I'll be happy to promote hypnosis

quote:

Originally posted by malkie:
That's my issue AD, I don't think an appropriate study/trial *can* be performed. When dealing with anything cognative you cannot rule out a placebo, and you cannot seperate the effect of the 'hypnosis' from the effect of speaking to a 'specialist' who promises to cure you.

If it helps some people then great! I'm all for it - I just don't think it has much scientific merit.

You're right. It doesn't have outright scientific merit but its not exactly ridiculous along the lines of divine intervention or astrology.

Hypnosis (either via the placebo the effect or the power of suggestion) has been shown to be effective at times and even you have to accept that. You accept that studying the unconscious to such a depth that clear results can be presented is not exactly possible so why do you demand such evidence? Its like asking an astro-physicist to prove that space is infinite.

I think he can ask for evidence seeing as the original question was would we want hypnotherepy on the NHS. Imagine the compo claims when things go wrong! I knew a girl once who had hypnotherepy to help her stop smoking. Something terrible happened, she started to tell everyone she was raped by her father as a child. She ended up being committed after throwing bricks through her mothers windows and trying to kidnap the local kids!! We thought the hypnosis had dragged up some hidden memories..or she just turned crazy.

Anyway this highlights the dangers of using unorthodox methods like this one.

If it were to be on the NHS, science would need a better understanding of it.

quote:

Originally posted by malkie:
So, because I don't blindly accept what you say I'm "close-minded", and "inflexible" ? Seriously, where do you get off ?

You need to appreciate that many people will be skeptical due to the absence of any reasonable proof on the effectiveness of your techniques. Calling me close-minded for not blinding accepting your nonsense just shows you are being defensive over your techniques, and are unhappy to entertain criticism.

Well actually I was trying to help rather than insult but I will repeat you do appear (from what we can determine on here) to be closing your mind to the fact that hypnosis might be a benefit to you - which is surely more important than proving something beyond all doubt. Many people who doubted hypnosis have proved to be excellent hypnotees because they are already in that emotive, determined state.

No.

I don't doubt at all that many people would say that hypnosis has helped them - either over come a fear, or over come pain etc etc.

However, I question the validity of hypnosis, and you are doing nothing to address my question.

I'm particularly interested in anyone who has gone to lengths to accurately validate hypnosis and prove that it really does work.

I'm open to anything, providing there's a reasonable degree of evidence supporting it's effectiveness. This evidence is lacking for hypnosis, and you are rather arrogant if you expect people to believe it blindly without any evidence.

Thankyou Meow Mix for your comments, I agree with all that you have said.Malkie did you not see the programme that I took part in, is that not proof?During the time prior to the live programme I was eager to be educated about Hypnosis and I went from a total sceptic to someone who is passionate about its uses.There is nobody here who will change your mind overnight you need to study, talk to people and be OPEN MINDED!

quote:

Malkie did you not see the programme that I took part in, is that not proof?

I've already covered this point in this thread - you'd be advised to read the entire thread if you are genuinely interested.

To repeat myself :- Just because it was on TV doesn't make it any more real. David Copperfield made the Statue of Liberty disappear on TV - does that mean he *actually* did it?

quote:

There is nobody here who will change your mind overnight you need to study, talk to people and be OPEN MINDED!

I am open minded. If I wasn't open minded I simply wouldn't reply to this thread.

So, study what exactly ? Give me these studies and I'll read them and hopefully find what I'm looking for.

However, bottom line is that there is nothing to study, as no appropriate trials have ever been performed.

What are you actually looking for?


Over two thousand years ago a man called Jesus was said to have made a blind man see a cripple walk turn he turned water into wine and feed over five thousand people with a few fish and some bread. His piece de resistance was to be whipped to the top of a hill get crucified stabbed in the ribs with a spear is pronounced dead. Then three days later he comes walking down the road and shows to some locals the holes in his hands tells everyone to wait until he comes back and here we are two thousand years later still waiting. Now malkie I didn’t see this I don’t know anyone who was there on the day there is no evidence that he even existed. Any evidence that does exist is controlled by the catholic church, and yet there are many people who use this un-provable series of events as the very essence of their life some touch it in a less meaningful way if there is no evidence does that mean the events didn’t happen does that mean that the Christian religion is flawed or is it just that they chose to believe because it serves their purpose can I use your argument that hypnosis doesn’t work because there is no evidence go to a Muslim and ask him where is your evidence that Allah exists and see what happens ask a catholic priest for evidence of the existence of Jesus ask a rabbi for evidence that the events of the old testaments happened. If you chose not to believe that is your choice and I will defend your right implicitly. But good manners dictate you should not ridicule or belittle what other people believe. If it serves there purpose just because there is no evidence you do not have the right to dismiss it out of hand that just shows a lack of consideration you have the right to discuss debate and challenge, but not to dismiss.