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Of course not, but to take it to the extreme - if I gave every extra penny to charity to help others then I wouldn't be able to go on holiday.

wow- I actually said you'd say that and you did! What do I care about your holiday where you will no doubt be spending money in and therefore giveing tax to other coutries? What have they done to earn your tax money... what if they spend it on FORIEGN fat people ( the horror) If you value your holiday over the life and health of your fellow human beings I don't know where you get off calling anyone else greedy... why should the envioronment suck your car or airoplane fumes? Just so you can have fun? Heavens lad you sound like a fat person entertaining the idea of eating a three course meal.... all this for you pleasure for shame....

right most of that was intentionally irronic but you see my point you are asking for freedom and enjoyment in your own life as if it were a right, why is it not a right for others who definitly won't go on holiday if they pay your share of health tax (if you picked up an exotic desease on your travels would you have to pay for it since you chose to go on holiday?)Until you give me a method more advanced than "tax him he's plump" and have proved that tax money cannot be funneled from other sorces ... like out of military spending I'll keep makeing the point that the NHS should either cover everyone or no one?

I'm waiting for the day that Malkie's metabolism lets him down, and the needle on his scales starts rising, and he becomes too fat to waddle to the computer. He won't be able to work, and will have to let his health insurance go, and will be unable to pay his taxes, therefore won't be eligible for any treatment, if his wishes come true. You just don't know what's round the corner, Malkie... wouldn't it be great if it was a battle with your weight? Keep an eye on that needle!

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I'll keep makeing the point that the NHS should either cover everyone or no one?

I have no problem with the NHS covering no one. I'd have everyone pay for what they use.

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wow- I actually said you'd say that and you did! What do I care about your holiday where you will no doubt be spending money in and therefore giveing tax to other coutries? What have they done to earn your tax money... what if they spend it on FORIEGN fat people ( the horror) If you value your holiday over the life and health of your fellow human beings I don't know where you get off calling anyone else greedy... why should the envioronment suck your car or airoplane fumes? Just so you can have fun? Heavens lad you sound like a fat person entertaining the idea of eating a three course meal.... all this for you pleasure for shame....

what's the actual point to this rant ? more sarcasm to cover up that your arguement doesn't actually stand up.

If I choose to go on holiday and give money to other countries then I can. If I choose to donate money to charity then I can.

I don't get to choose were my tax money goes, and I certainly don't think it should be going to people who are 100% responsible for their condition.

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why is it not a right for others who definitly won't go on holiday if they pay your share of health tax

I don't ask them to, and I don't believe they should have to. Besides, I wouldn't ever use the NHS.

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(if you picked up an exotic desease on your travels would you have to pay for it since you chose to go on holiday?)

Yes, I should have to pay for it. However, *you* shouldn't.

Why should you have to pay because I went overseas and contracted something I otherwise wouldn't have got?

i dont think it really matters if we tax the fat or not the goverment will waste the money either way i just watched on the news the goverment have given prisioners £4000 each for those that were drug addicts to come clean and as they have they get the money, what a joke wonder where that money come from. There is so much waste of our money from the goverment never mind the overweight they are easy targets because they dont look good,dose that really matter they have to carry themselves and live as they do the people who should be taxed for this is the goverment and the food industry they trick people in to thinking they eat healthy when they dont and then the weight problems begin

I caught a bit of parlamentary TV Today... Aparently the NHS still pays for tatoo removal operations... admitedly this is under discusion but really it hardly sounds like medical expenditure is very well focused in the first place.

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Yes, I should have to pay for it. However, *you* shouldn't.

Why should you have to pay because I went overseas and contracted something I otherwise wouldn't have got?

To address this point again.... SIGH that I should have to... whether you think it's fair or not the system is such that if you did pick up a desease and return to England the system would cover you. Either you must change the system or you must admit a double standard for overwieght people who you would exclude because of what you call their choice. Besides the idea of this extent of accntability for our own health is rediculious. I've made a choice if I leave my house, should I have to pay for any misfourtune that occurs as a result?

again, you are talking about accidents, whereas being obese isn't an accident.

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again, you are talking about accidents, whereas being obese isn't an accident.

It might not fulfil the normal definition of an accident, but it does not fulfill the definition of an action (or choice) either, since it is almost never a persons desire to get fat. Action requires intent and this is missing. The analogy I gave stands in the sense that you stated that you would be responsible for a desease you picked up on holiday, I extended it to say you might get a desease simply by stepping out of your front door. In both cases and in the case of the overweight person you did not intend the consiquences of your action (they are side effects). We pay for the one case... I beleave we should... so why not the other. WE would rightly have sympathy with you if you got malaria on holiday ... it could be looked on as an accident. Where you and I might find some common ground is that I will conceed that if you kept going to desease hot spots and returning to claim health benifits I would say you should stop. Similarly if a person has continued medical problems due to wieght and does not heed the warnings of his doctors or attempt to loose weight... it moves from the status of being an unfortunate side effect of an action in this case eating for pleasure or comfort and become delibrate action(a big problem I have with the fat tax is it penalises people before they can make this choice) through inaction (old debate in philosoph, can action=inaction). Once again it's about moderation, having a bit of compasion and giving people the benifit of the doubt at least at first. You and I do not disagree that people must own up to their choices I just don't see the world so simply... you say it's a flat choice... I say no one makes a choice in a vacume.

Glad to see you're not sulking Malkie I expected a south park watcher to have a thicker skin .... If I really did cause offense, Sorry, if I just pricked that ego of yours... it could do with some deflation. (don't take things too personally remember I have never met you I am sure you have many redeeming qualities... but I write as I would talk... my brother would take worse than that and give it back too, peace... sticks and stones and all that)

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Originally posted by malkie:
again, you are talking about accidents, whereas being obese isn't an accident.

If you come out your house and walk along a very busy road with a very narrow pavement, there's quite a high probability that you could get squashed by a big lorry misjudging a corner. You know of this probability so therefore it could hardly be called an accident. Should you take to climbing over the backgarden wall and cutting across the fields, risking the wrath of the big bull guarding its harem instead? (This means, of course, you will have to wear your wellies and chance athletes' foot above everything else, and they're not very good to run in, if the bull decides to chase you.) If you work in a busy, polluted city and have asthmatic problems, should you live way out in an area of far less pollution, even though it takes you 3 hours to get to work each way.

We, with our taxes, pay for the chap who could only afford the house on the busy road with the bull at the back, and the poor asthmatic chap, who either chooses to stay in a polluted city, or is unable to spend 6 hours travelling a day. We don't say "tax people who develop health problems because of where they decide to stay", although a lot of health problems are caused this way - never mind the hypothetical situation above, folk get beaten up because they live in really rough areas or get robbed with violence in really posh areas.

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Glad to see you're not sulking Malkie I expected a south park watcher to have a thicker skin .... If I really did cause offense, Sorry, if I just pricked that ego of yours... it could do with some deflation.

It was all deleted, so it's like it never happened. However, please be aware that there's no need to resort to name calling, and I've no interest in debating with those who do.

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since it is almost never a persons desire to get fat. Action requires intent and this is missing.

I agree with you - people don't tend to want to get fat, but the fact remains that it's their fault that they do in 100% of cases. Furthermore, all cases of obesity can be reversed, so further action can reverse the situation.

If I crash my car by accident then it's done. I can't undo it.

It does stand that no-one becomes obesity overnight - it's a series of events, and people should take action when they stop fitting into their clothes rather then simply buy new ones.

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you kept going to desease hot spots and returning to claim health benifits I would say you should stop

How does that differ from someone who keeps going to the fridge and eating more food ? Surely it's exactly the same thing.

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You and I do not disagree that people must own up to their choices I just don't see the world so simply... you say it's a flat choice... I say no one makes a choice in a vacume.

I agree with your assessment of our view points. I'd always argue it's a simple case of choices because that's how it is. A major point for me is that if we were less forgiving as a nation then there would be fewer obese people in the first place, and a much bigger push on those who are obese to reverse their situation.

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I'd always argue it's a simple case of choices because that's how it is.

But don't you see, this is where the fustration comes into it, your world may seem black and white but mine and many others are in shades of grey. I have had personal experience of people with real problems , not "sort it oout yourself" kind of stuff but genuine life scaring kind of events. I won't go into it because it is not my life I would be talking about but beleive me when I say some times you just make the best of things. Anti-depresants for instance do make you fat, in an almost case by case basis of the people I know who are on anti-depresants they have gained weight. When you are fighting other deamons in your life your expanding waste band is the least of your concerns. This also holds true when you've had a bad day at work and you need something to make life seem better... yes it's an excuse but I think a valid one. What do you use to perk you up when you're down? how would you feel if someone judged you for it?Really I know you don't beleive it but if you get through life without haveing to deal with these issues you are one of the lucky ones. People shuold loose wieght, but encouragement is better than condemnation. The tax will not stop people eating nor will alienating them by makeing them "other". Only their own realisation of the pain they will cause themselves, their loved ones and in the end our society will ever serve us. As I have already said the addict must accept that they have a problem, before that you will achieve nothing.

You also have not addresed the fact that not all fat people are or get sick (I would agree with you there are degrees between fat and obese and that's exactly it some people are just fat and will never be obese)... you are prejudging the issue. Even if I agreed with you that being fat is a flat choice then why should I pay taxes for my condition until I acctually incur medical cost?
If it's just because I have a high BMI that's rediculious. I myself have a high BMI, but I do regular exersise, have a large muscle mass and at over 6 foot two I am just big. Sure I could loose a few pounds most of us could but I am very functional thank you very much and all my vital statistics are good to normal (ie blood sugar, colesterol, blood presure). I do not take all this for granted and if I was told that I had a problem I would do my best to correct it. Until then I like the occasional pizza with friends or a good steak... (I worry about how I will live before how I might die) BMI is not a good mesure of people actuall fitness and their health risks. Coren proposed a tax based on this it would be wrong plain and simple.

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. Furthermore, all cases of obesity can be reversed, so further action can reverse the situation.

agree, absolutely with this people should not be complacent in their obesity... just think that while they are functional members of society they should not be singled out. If you had that car accident once we would look after you, if you kept having them we would take your licence away....

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How does that differ from someone who keeps going to the fridge and eating more food ? Surely it's exactly the same thing.

it differs because, the tax payer does not pay each time some one eats (the reverse in fact.) As you said a car accident is an accident, some people even say time distorts and they watch it all happen in slow motion... Loosing control of yur weight can happen the same way (is the definition of an accident how long it takes, glacers can be slow but devistateing...), but it does not becaome our business until the victim asks us for our help.... If they do nothing to change their behaviour, then no they do not deserve to be suported forever, but if a medical professional is satisfied that they are doing all they can, then neither your or my opinion matter we help them like any other person in need.

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It was all deleted, so it's like it never happened. However, please be aware that there's no need to resort to name calling, and I've no interest in debating with those who do.

This isn't from the chap that calls overweight people "fat, lazy and unwilling", is it?

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This isn't from the chap that calls overweight people "fat, lazy and unwilling", is it?

I did point that out but there's no point in bickering. Two wrongs don't make a right and though I understand anyone who would get fustrated with Malkie's dogmatic method of argueing, what's the point of blocking dialog with insult. What I actually find interesting about
this qote is that you say he called overweight people fat... They are fat... it says something about the way society has stigmatised the word that it should be next to lazy and unwilling. Both of these have negative conitations but if you are fat well you're fat and so what? "if sack and suggar be a fault then god help the wicked, if to be fat is to be hated...."

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Anti-depresants for instance do make you fat

No they don't, and it really bothers me when people say this.

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No they don't, and it really bothers me when people say this.

ok sorry to bother you but two nurses, one of whom claimed to work with many mental patients said they did. It also lists weight gain as a side effect in the write up for most anti-depesents and a good many other medications besides, I know because as I said I have friends who are on anti-depresants and a girl friend of mine worked proof reading the inserts for a major drugs company. Add to this my own personal experience of friends who have gone on them and in every case gained weight. I grant you it might be hard to separate weight gain out as a symptom of the drug or the mental condition, but either way it shows that things are not as cut and dry as you claim. That is why it bother's you and why once agan you have stated a "fact" with no basis other than your opinion.

It's a very simple concept.

If a person on a given medication didn't eat for a day, would they gain weight, or lose weight?

They'd obviously lose weight.

The drugs don't have any effect on your weight - only the food you eat has any effect on your weight.

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Posted 17-11-06 15:29 Hide Post
It's a very simple concept (INDEED NEVER QUESTIONED IT>>> EXCEPT TO SAY IT"S NOT THE WHOLE STORY).

If a person on a given medication didn't eat for a day, would they gain weight, or lose weight? (OVER ONE DAY ANY WEIGHT LOST WOULD PROBABLY BE LOSS OF WATER RETENTION ACTUALLY)

They'd obviously lose weight.

The drugs don't have any effect on your weight (THEY HAVE AN EFFECT ON MATABOLISM) - only the food you eat has any effect on your weight (YES AND ONLY GERMS AND BACTERIA MAKE YOU SICK BUT YOUR BODY CAN BE IN A BETTER OR WORSE STATE TO FIGHT INFECTION) .

your right it is a SIMPLE concept... people should who need to be on anti-depresents should now be starved as well. How can you claim this would have medical benefit or be practical given that we would have to actively supervise over tWo million people who use anti-depresents in the uk each year. Not only that but as many people have pointed out if you just don't feed people the body simply goes into a starvation mode and holds onto as much fat as it can, which means that when you do start eating again you are in a worse position to loose weight than before (ever heard of yo-yo dieting)... Can't you see? I don't mean to be rude but your argument is tired, it has little to do with a tax right or wrong and has not engaged with one of the wider issues raised. You don't seem to have much of a back ground either in medicine or psycology, if you genuinely want to curb the problem this mantra just won't do the job.

Do you even ignolage that there are complex reasons behind human actions? And these reasons are dificult for others to judge?