quote:

became think tomorrow

became thin*

Sorry.

If you tax people for their size, what next? Where do we draw the line?? I live next to a 'fat family' who all work, pay their way and are never ill - down the road are a 'thin family' who haven't worked for years, pay nothing and are always "up the hospital" for some ailment or another.
We are all becoming far too controlled by 'the powers that be' and influenced by the media promoted 'young and thin is right, everything else is wrong'. These days fat people are just the latest easy target. (No, I'm not fat)

Tax the bad foods, and stopp over charging for fruits, vegetables and the fad diet foods. Why should we pay more for less??

[/QUOTE]

if so, we have to begin to tax bulimics, anorexics, drug addicts who enter publicly funded rehabilitation programs, stupid people who injure themsleves doing DIY, people who fall off their bikes, we should double tax people who take part in dangerous sports even though they are fit and healthy, ginger haired people.....there is no end to the groups of people we could tax and no end to the people who would produce arguments as to why we would be correct in taxing them. We are a society, this is why we look after our children, our elderly, our sick whether self-inflicted or not.[/QUOTE]

Obesity is self inflicted 24/7 over a long period of time in full knowledge of the health and lifestyle consequences it will have. What have Ginger haired people got to do with anything? Last time I looked they weren't having limbs amputated or having massive numbers of heart attack or strokes. Or people who have genuine accidents while in persuit of a fit and healthy lifestyle?

Besides all this we are not talking about other groups, we are talking about fat people. . .

There is no education argument, EVERYBODY knows that fruit and veg is healthy, chips and cakes are not. No poverty argument, healthy foods are cheaper. Unless you want to accept that all fat people are also stupid, there is no reason that they cannot break their habit. So it is a choice, and as such it should be paid for out of their own pockets.

quote:

Originally posted by Twinkle 1404:

if so, we have to begin to tax bulimics, anorexics, drug addicts who enter publicly funded rehabilitation programs, stupid people who injure themsleves doing DIY, people who fall off their bikes, we should double tax people who take part in dangerous sports even though they are fit and healthy, ginger haired people.....there is no end to the groups of people we could tax and no end to the people who would produce arguments as to why we would be correct in taxing them. We are a society, this is why we look after our children, our elderly, our sick whether self-inflicted or not.[/QUOTE]

Obesity is self inflicted 24/7 over a long period of time in full knowledge of the health and lifestyle consequences it will have. What have Ginger haired people got to do with anything? Last time I looked they weren't having limbs amputated or having massive numbers of heart attack or strokes. Or people who have genuine accidents while in persuit of a fit and healthy lifestyle?

Besides all this we are not talking about other groups, we are talking about fat people. . .

There is no education argument, EVERYBODY knows that fruit and veg is healthy, chips and cakes are not. No poverty argument, healthy foods are cheaper. Unless you want to accept that all fat people are also stupid, there is no reason that they cannot break their habit. So it is a choice, and as such it should be paid for out of their own pockets.[/QUOTE]

This is no arguement. This is still a hatred fight against obese people. People arent consulting the facts!

Stuckinamatchbox you need to get out of this victim mentality. You are in control. You can lose weight. I am not saying that you (or fat people) are bad or less worthy anymore than smokers are. Just that you are making an unhealthy choice and I don't see why the rest of us should have to pay for it.

quote:

There is no education argument, EVERYBODY knows that fruit and veg is healthy, chips and cakes are not.

Would that this were so, Twinkle 1404... Much as I personally find it hard to believe, there are people in this country who do not appreciate the long-term harm that fast foods can cause.

Also, nutritional information is ineffective if people do not know how many calories and how much salt and fat should be in a healthy diet, which is the case for a large number of people, I'm sure. Many products do not publish recommended daily amounts; in fact, the publishing of nutritional information is not required by law unless a nutritional claim is made, which I was surprised to discover upon research...

In short, though it may be surprising, there are people who are ignorant of which foods are healthy and which aren't.

quote:

No poverty argument, healthy foods are cheaper.

Sorry to be blunt, but this is just patently rubbish. The cheapest meal a mother can buy her kids is either a take-out fast food, or a processed, stick-in-the-oven food. To cook nice and healthy food takes time, effort, and money for fresh ingredients.

quote:

There is no reason that they cannot break their habit, so it is a choice.

Not always the case, see my post on the previous page, quoted in part here:

"On the face of things, it looks like it's just a case of "Well, it's their fault because they eat too much", but in reality, it's not that simple. We need to delve into the deeper biological and pathological reasons for their overeating, besides simple greed. This is a typical attribution error: If something bad is happening to another, you tend to say it's their fault, but if it happened to you, it would have a situational cause. (...) It would pay, in this instance, to be a little more open-minded about the secondary causes of obesity."

Someone should just watch Jamie Olivers programs. Education isnt an agruement?? Thats odd, as I see it a lack of education is exactly the problem, that or a conspiracy to fatten the nation. Rather than attacking those who have reached this stage, we have to tackle them earlier.

If EVERYBODY knows this, why is it we often feed our school children exactly that, and for many this is the same as they get at home. Could also be argued that chips arent a bad food, afterall its just fried potatoes. Fry them in alternative oils, they arent as bad.

We are a nation of fast fooders, as are most of the nations that suffer from mass obesity. This is also known by most. These are companies with lot of money to encourage the consumption of their foods, its not just the few that go to these places, and not all those that do are fat.

If we all so keen on paying for what we use, then just charge more than what it cost to produce, at least get some level of fairness in the system. Economies of scale alone can make it so bad foods do cost less, again tackled in Jamie Olivers program. Again sometimes we may have to spend more initially so we dont have to spend so much later cleaning up the mess. `Many schools are now catching onto this, even though they lose revenue from vending machines. Should are schools and the health of kids be left to economics?

Healthy food is cheaper, sorry. Microwave meals are expensive!! A reasonably sized McDonalds costs nearly £4. Yes, it takes time and effort to cook properly. It takes time and effort to look after yourself to remain fully functional - don't you think that it's worth it? I don't buy your argument that most people do not fully understand a healthy diet either. They all have TVs don't they? They must be doing something instead of cooking healthy food and exercising. Watch just about any channel for a couple of hours and you are bound to see some kind of healthy food programming.

I agree that a small proportion of people are compulsively eating or comfort eating, and they should be helped. I am not saying that fat people should not be helped (although I find it a little difficult to accept that a third of the population are in desperate need of diet-related psychological counselling). I am simply saying that like all things that are self inflicted (I think smokers should pay for their own health care too so I am not victimising fat people) people should pay for their own consequences.

I would like to emphasise the phrase "a small proportion" in my last post.

Heres the thing...

Me personally. I have just completed a degree which i paid for myself, no government funding. I have been in hospital a few times, all for things in my childhood like falling off my bike etc... I was a clumsey child!

I am 'doing something about it' in every sense of the word... And what i am doing I am paying for off my own back. NHS is NOTHING to do with it.

During my university days i worked 12 hour shifts to fund myself. And my course is more manual than mentally challenging.

My problem is, people tar everyone with the same brush. NOW, I KNOW fully well that there are a lot of people who do not do any of the above, and probably do the oposite. BUT its not everyone. And that is what annoys me about this whole programme and post.

So yes, I do get a little defensive when people try to stereotype others.

I am young, and I am doing something about it. The problem with channel 4 airing such programmes like these, is that people watching them see them as fact. And many people arent interested in researching and looking for the facts. Many (not all) people will watch this programme and believe every word of it. They will then stereotype every fat person with that information.

Personally i get enough abuse thrown at me in the street without channel 4 making the whole situation worse.

Jamie olivers programmes were fantastic, and I backed him all the way because i DO NOT want to see people turn out like me.

The dieting programmes are all usefull to the public domain because they are giving helpfull information to the masses.

Giles Coren, all he is doing is creating more reasons for people to abuse others.

I know many people disagree and thats fine. But thats is how i feel about it. If the shoe was on the other foot for others then I am almost certain you would undrstand this.

I am not a victim as i said, I just don't agree with a man starting some kind of petition to create more abuse in society.

quote:

Healthy food is cheaper, sorry. Microwave meals are expensive!! A reasonably sized McDonalds costs nearly £4.

Are you serious? This press release shows that the WHO begs to differ:

"As healthy foods are often more expensive than processed energy-dense alternatives, a nutritional disparity can be seen not only from country to country and area to area, but also between different demographic groups, with people from low socio-economic groups more likely to consume unhealthy options."

I don't know how expensive McDonalds and KFC are where you come from, but where I live, fresh fruit and veg are relatively expensive, and the cheapest option would be junk food every time(or a Sainsbury's straight-to-oven chicken kiev, my particular favourite).

quote:

I don't buy your argument that most people do not fully understand a healthy diet either. They all have TVs don't they? They must be doing something instead of cooking healthy food and exercising. Watch just about any channel for a couple of hours and you are bound to see some kind of healthy food programming.

Most people are aware of obviously unhealthy foods being bad for them. But I find some people's ignorance of what they put in their mouth staggering, even in my own home. My father and sister (who I would consider reasonably well educated) just have no idea about the nutritional content of some foods, or about their overall nutritional needs. My dad might ask me for a beer if we've just been out to the gym, and if I told him it contains over half the calories he just burned off, he would be very surprised.

In other words, I know I've just provided one example, but it's a mistake to assume that everyone knows when they are eating unhealthily.

quote:

I don't buy your argument that most people do not fully understand a healthy diet either.

Should've pointed out that I don't think "most" people do not understand a healthy diet, but a significant proportion nonetheless.

Also, although most people probably will know that they are supposed to "eat healthily", they won't necessarily know what that entails.

Anyway, I'm off out now, so no time to argue the point fully I'm afraid. More when I'm back, hopefully...

AD - we'd don't pay to teach criminals a lesson, we pay to keep them out of society. Two completely different things.

Joe Moed - the cost of food arguement simply doesn't stand up. Those prepackaged microwave meal things are 3 or 4 quid each, and McDonalds meal can easily stretch to a fiver.

Alternatively you can buy tesco's own wholemeal pasta for 20p a bag, and a tin of tomatoes for a further 10p. Pasta and sauce!

A sensible portion of lean british mince is less than a pound, 10p tin of kidney beans, and a 10p tin of tomatoes and you've practically made chilli for 3 people for £1.

Two big bags of oranges are currently less than a pound at tescos, as are british apples, or a couple of bananas.

A nice piece of fresh cod will cost you £1, and together with a bag of potatoes you've got the beginning of a fish pie which will serve a couple of people.



Interestingly, whenever I walk past McDonalds, the fat chavs in there all seem to have designer footwear on, and plenty of gold jewelry.

quote:

Originally posted by malkie:
AD - we'd don't pay to teach criminals a lesson, we pay to keep them out of society. Two completely different things.

Yes but in "keeping them out of society" we're paying to make sure they remain healthy and refrain from commiting suicide. If you're happy to fund the upkeep of people who are arguably more of a strain to society than the odd fat guy, why won't you pay to help this fat guy help himself?

To me, your logic doesn't follow. The only way it would follow is if you suggested that 1) prisoners paid a monthly rent towards their cell and meals and 2) no tax money went towards the building of prisons or the reform of prisoners.

Hence since you're happy to "pay to keep criminals out of society until they learn their lesson", it follows that you should be happy to pay for fat people to attend a weight loss program until they loose weight.

very well said a-d, but you could compare things like this all day....

i'd just like to add.....

"The best way to ensure that you're getting at least the recommended amount of good nutrients and no more than the recommended amount of things that are bad for you is to follow a sensible eating plan. This will include a balance of nutrients, and make sure that the levels of salt, sugar and saturated fats are kept to a minimum. Following a common-sense diet is more likely to keep you on the right side of the recommendations that following a diet that consists of junk food or highly processed foods which will almost certainly raise your levels of fat and other nutrients which can be harmful if eaten to excess over time."

Has common sense been thrown out of the window?

I don't think I was very clear in what I was saying, Malkie, sorry. When comparing prices, I was looking to compare like with like, i.e.: the prices of an analogous healthy and unhealthy option in a supermarket, so I shouldn't really have mentioned fast food. My local Sainsbury's usually has a "Be Good To Yourself" variant of many high-fat or high-calorie products. These are always at least 30% more expensive than the normal variety, so that no-one short on cash (including penniless students ) goes for the healthier option in these cases.

This may be a regional thing, since as I pointed out, a McDonalds costs nearly twice as much according to you as it does according to me. Also, fresh fruit and veg is always the most expensive part of my weekly shop per amount of food. I would, however, point out that the WHO seemed to agree with me (but what would a bunch of ageing rockstars know, eh?).

Maybe we ought to drop the cost side of the debate, since I feel other aspects are more important, and so far we've been debating back and forth at cross purposes! Personally, I would concentrate on the education and causes of obesity side, since I feel that a lack of knowledge about one's own diet is far more prevalent that some people realise, as are involuntary secondary causes of obesity.

quote:

Originally posted by warden:

"The best way to ensure that you're getting at least the recommended amount of good nutrients and no more than the recommended amount of things that are bad for you is to follow a sensible eating plan. This will include a balance of nutrients, and make sure that the levels of salt, sugar and saturated fats are kept to a minimum. Following a common-sense diet is more likely to keep you on the right side of the recommendations that following a diet that consists of junk food or highly processed foods which will almost certainly raise your levels of fat and other nutrients which can be harmful if eaten to excess over time."

Has common sense been thrown out of the window?

I'd like to summarize my post above, as I think some people haven't considered these possibilities (apologies for repeating myself, but it's not that long...):

If you eat more food than your body needs, you gain weight. This is perfectly true, at least physiologically. However, this is only the primary cause of obesity. There are secondary causes, which themselves cause people to overeat, and these are often not controllable. Some people will have faulty hunger perception, others will compulsively eat, etc...

It may look like a case of "Well, it's their fault because they eat too much", but it's not that simple. We need to delve into the deeper biological and pathological reasons for their overeating, besides simple greed. This is a typical attribution error: If something bad is happening to another, it's their fault, but if it happened to you, it would have a situational cause. It would pay to be a little more open-minded about the secondary causes of obesity."

quote:

akin to facism made me think about how jews were treated during the war

They were born Jewish - the obese aren't born obese. They eat too much food.

I was talking about treating people by marking them out as 'other' ....I suppose you think that Hitler was right to mark star of david symbols on people's houses just cos they were born Jewish then?

quote:

Originally posted by trouble1978:

quote:

akin to facism made me think about how jews were treated during the war

They were born Jewish - the obese aren't born obese. They eat too much food.

I was talking about treating people by marking them out as 'other' ....I suppose you think that Hitler was right to mark star of david symbols on people's houses just cos they were born Jewish then?

Are you seriously comparing an optional tax (given that weight loss is always possible) on a persons unhealthy life style and inevitable cost to society to the mass genocide of millions of innocent Jews? Seriously?

umm Twinkle, I think you're mistaken. You might want to read the last couple of pages again.