He was commenting on the fact that in the program, someone suggested fat people ought to be marked out, so strictly speaking, the comparison wasn't his:

"The idea of making fat people wear hats to mark them out in society was akin to facism made me think about how jews were treated during the war."

I couldnt agree more with your concept of taxing the fat, indeed it needs some tweaking as the program was well presented, but indeed very bias.
Whoever chose to suggest taxing the elderely as a comparison needs to think again, noone can help geting old, it is a part of life, you can help getting fat. I personally believe that there are no excuses, i am student living on perhaps less than most people on the minmum wage, and i eat healthily - i am not overweight. Furthermore, i have a hip problem that means somedays i can barely walk, i cant climb stairs or run 100yards. However, once again -i am not fat, and being incapable of some exercise is not an excuse. I started by walkin each day and now i swim, whats me i watch what i eat. Im not saying im an excellent example, im just proving there are no excuses.
We can all make our own choices, i couldnt agree more, however, when you consider that there are thousands of women who would benefit from recieving the drug Herceptin, or all the young children with genetic diseases, such as CF who are having to go without or wait for treatment far to long because the NHS is streched and cant afford it you have to ask yourself why? Indeed, poor funding on the governments part is to blame, along with several other factors, but i cant help but think that this self inflicted obesity problem is a selfish drain of funds and is effectively denying other people treatment.
I agree with whoever said that to eat like someone who is excessively overweight costs and immense amount, if they can afford to pay for the gross amount of food they shovel in, then perhaps they can afford to pay for their own health care? Its not cheap to be fat and lazy - a pizza and a dvd costs money - a cycle on a push bike costs nothing.
Most importantly perhaps is the frightening statistic that todays generation of children are the first ever to be expected to die before their parents. What a bad example obese people are setting, to suggest it is an acceptable state to be in. I pity them.

I must stress that its not as simple as fat people deciding to be fat.

We live in a society and if we're ok paying to take care of criminals till they're fit to return to society then we should be fine with paying to help overweight people loose weight in a less fascist and patronizing and more healthy way.

quote:

Originally posted by Joe Moed:
He was commenting on the fact that in the program, someone suggested fat people ought to be marked out, so strictly speaking, the comparison wasn't his:

"The idea of making fat people wear hats to mark them out in society was akin to facism made me think about how jews were treated during the war."

surely fat people are marked out by, um, being fat?! its not like you can miss a fat person walking down the street as Giles was so kind to point out in his article and the "provocative polemic".....

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Its not cheap to be fat and lazy - a pizza and a dvd costs money - a cycle on a push bike costs nothing.

so how are those DVD's tasting? i was thinking of trying one, you must let me know......

so how are those DVD's tasting? i was thinking of trying one, you must let me know......[/QUOTE]

what a pathetic point to raise.

thats funny, i was thinking that about the original post. escept, of course, that it was pathetic AND pointless

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so how are those DVD's tasting? i was thinking of trying one, you must let me know......

what a pathetic point to raise.

Come on one day, it was obvious that this was a joke, not a serious point (at least, I hope so, wimnolies ).

quote:

Originally posted by A-D:
I must stress that its not as simple as fat people deciding to be fat.

no, it *is* that simple.

People choose to be fat. No-one wakes up and are suddenly obese, and there's nothing stopping anyone losing weight.

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Originally posted by malkie:

quote:

Originally posted by A-D:
I must stress that its not as simple as fat people deciding to be fat.

no, it *is* that simple.

People choose to be fat. No-one wakes up and are suddenly obese, and there's nothing stopping anyone losing weight.

MALKIE - You are missing the point! Once again you are totally ignoring FACTS. Your comment is right, HOWEVER there IS more to it than that. The sooner you realise that the better.

MALKIE - You are missing the point! Once again you are totally ignoring FACTS. Your comment is right, HOWEVER there IS more to it than that. The sooner you realise that the better.[QUOTE]

He is not ignoring the facts. The facts are that if you consume more calories than you burn you get fat, then obese. You control what goes into your body and you control how active you are.

What he is ignoring is your opinion that nobody has any self control or freedom of choice. And I for one am with him. I can't believe the denial that is going on here. Does nobody take responsibility for themselves anymore?

And just to set the record straight Joe and A-D, I know he was talking about marking out fat people, but that isn't what this forum is about. We are not talking about the mass murder of fat people, nor marking them out by exclusion or stigma. Comparisons to smoking, drinking, disease I can understand but not to genocide. It's just melodramatic and inflammatory.

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We are not talking about the mass murder of fat people, nor marking them out by exclusion or stigma. Comparisons to smoking, drinking, disease I can understand but not to genocide. It's just melodramatic and inflammatory.

True. I have made my feelings about misplaced comparisons to genocide very clear in the animal testing thread. I find the overuse of Nazi atrocities in debate simply to make a point abhorrent.

I think that the comparison related to the singling out of a group in society by some kind of marker. In other words, leving aside whether or not the group's defining feature (obesity or Judaism in this case) is self-inflicted or not, I think that it is wrong to force any group within society to label themselves with distinctive clothing.

I have to admit that I didn't see the program (though I have read the corresponding article), so I didn't hear the wording of this suggestion. If it was indeed suggested at one point, as I'm led to believe, that fat people ought to be forced to wear a certain mark, I find that to be a disgraceful suggestion.

Nobody (I hope) was trying to compare the forcing of obese people to wear special hats with the genocide of Jews. But they were, I think, trying to compare hypothetically forcing obese people to wear special hats with forcing Jews to wear special stars.

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Originally posted by Twinkle 1404:
MALKIE - You are missing the point! Once again you are totally ignoring FACTS. Your comment is right, HOWEVER there IS more to it than that. The sooner you realise that the better.[QUOTE]

He is not ignoring the facts. The facts are that if you consume more calories than you burn you get fat, then obese. You control what goes into your body and you control how active you are.

What he is ignoring is your opinion that nobody has any self control or freedom of choice. And I for one am with him. I can't believe the denial that is going on here. Does nobody take responsibility for themselves anymore?

Twinkle. I'm sorry, but you are missinterpreting what i am saying, totally. And this is what is annoying me about this forum. I agree with Malkie to some extent. I'm not in denial. I once was, I wont lie.. But as i have said in previous posts things have dramatically changed for me. Anyway, thats not the point... All I am saying is that there is, a lot of the time, more to it than what people stereotypically see.

And what is frustrating me immensly is that people here are just constantly ignoring that.

People are looking at this topic in black and white, well its not black and white, its full colour! Not everyone is the same!

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MALKIE - You are missing the point! Once again you are totally ignoring FACTS. Your comment is right, HOWEVER there IS more to it than that. The sooner you realise that the better.

LOL, firstly, you haven't presented any facts, so what am I ignoring ?

Physiology is simple - if you eat more than you need to gain weight. If you eat less than you need you lose weight.

No one needs to be fat. Ever.

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All I am saying is that there is, a lot of the time, more to it than what people stereotypically see.

which is?

I asked you either in the thread to put your comments into context, and provide a little evidence - can you do so please ?

It's easier to debate biology and statistics than it is to contradict what is simply your opinion.

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Originally posted by malkie:People choose to be fat. No-one wakes up and are suddenly obese, and there's nothing stopping anyone losing weight.

Well scientifically, that is absolutely right. But this is a perfect example of how science is sometimes completely out of touch with reality in society.

Anyway, I see you've chosen to ignore my point about the obligations a modern society has towards it's vulnerable. Malkie, you fork out to keep prisoners healthy. You fork out to take care of babies that were born deformed due to their mothers using drugs during pregnancy. Hence you have an obligation to the morbidly obese. Stick that in your pipe and smoke it.

(I just posted this, it went up for 10 minutes, then disappeared. I don't know what happened and I don't thinks it's in any way offensive... Luckily, since it's quite long, I wrote it in word and copy-pasted, so I'll try again.)


For me, it boils down to this. While it is true that the proximal cause of obesity is eating more than your body needs, the distal (secondary) causes are less clear. To take an example, the proximal cause of anorexia is not eating enough. However, distal causes include poor body image, bullying at school, and the negative influence of beauty magazines. These distal causes are well understood in anorexia, which is why it is treated as a disease, not a choice. If we understood the distal causes of obesity better, we might be better able to help obese people.

Now obviously, obesity does not have the same distal causes as anorexia. However, it is widely accepted among the medical community that, on top of the simple physiological cause, there are numerous social, hereditary and environmental causes, whose influence on weight is less well understood. Here is a link to a World Health Organisation webpage called "Obesity in Europe". Some particularly relevant exctracts:

"Obesity and its related diseases are more prevalent among low socioeconomic groups. Those on lower incomes tend to consume more meat, fat and sugar than those on higher incomes, who consume more fruit and vegetables. In addition, low socioeconomic groups usually have less access to sport and fitness facilities, which limits the exercise they take."


On top of that, they're saying that the best way to combat obesity is to implement changes at a societal level as well as an individual level. In other words, even IF obesity had an individual cause, the best way to tackle it wouldn't be simply to target and pressure the individual, but to instigate changes in the society we live in as well.

The issue of obesity is a relatively new one on the world health scene, and this may be why it isn't as well understood. However, the bottom line is that obesity is at least partially down to environmental and societal influences. In addition, the best way to combat it, according to the WHO, is through combined individual and population-wide methods, reagardless of its cause. This leads me to conclude that, whatever your views on the causes of obesity, a tax on the fat would not be the best way to combat it.

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Malkie, you fork out to keep prisoners healthy.

Not out of choice. Personally I'd have them reparing our aging rail network to contribute to society while continuing to be prisoners.

A criminal chooses to break the law, and get's punished. An obese person chooses to be fat and hence should be punished.

I'd extend that to any lifestyle choice which results in me paying for someone's upkeep. Furthermore I'd also make the unemployed do community service each week to get their benefits.

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You fork out to take care of babies that were born deformed due to their mothers using drugs during pregnancy.

That's hardly the baby's fault, now is it?

Can you appreciate the difference ?

Obese people bring it on themselves and should be made to pay for their own healthcare.

Smokers and drinkers already do, so why not the obese?

Joe Moed is there any group that you think should be made to take responsibility for their own health and physical status? Smoking has 'distal' causes. Peer pressure, hunger supression, the desire for acceptance...should we be supporting a 16 year olds 40 a day habit? Shopaholics are said to have a disease now! Would you be quite happy for your taxes to go to paying off their credit?

Malkie, while I unfortunately don't have the time to go hunting for facts that I already know, maybe you could do that for yourself. You say that I am only expressing my opinion, well; I do believe you are doing exactly the same thing. I disagree with you completely that it is ‘easier’ to debate about biology, when it is true to say that biology is not the only contributing factor as Joe Moed excellently expressed in his last post.

You said the following in your last ridiculous post:

“A criminal chooses to break the law, and get's punished. An obese person chooses to be fat and hence should be punished”

Nice choice of word there, “punished”. What the bloody hell do you mean by that? Are you seriously saying that people aren’t entitled to the same dignity that thin people receive?
Are obese people out murdering people? Robbing people etc? Of course, some are but that’s the same with any size person!
People say that the prisoners in Guantanamo bay deserve to be ‘punished’… But of course in your opinion it seems that we are obviously at the same level as terrorists. Excuse me if I’m getting a bit carried away on my use of sarcasm here but I just feel I have to as what your saying is so utterly ridiculous.

I have already said in many of my posts what factors I KNOW contribute to obesity, maybe you should go and re read them for yourself, or failing that go and do some of your own research into the contributing factors to obesity.

What you are still failing to see is that not everyone is the same.

Not all obese people are putting a strain on society.

Not all obese people are unemployed.

Not all obese people are claiming benefits for their problem.

Not all obese people are having mental health problems or emotional problems leading to their obesity problem. BUT MANY PEOPLE OUT THERE ARE.

Which leads me to my final point, not everything is about Biology and Physiology. Society is changing, and its not for the better. I am in NO way saying that obesity is a good thing, or acceptable. Purely because it is not good for the people concerned. But criminalising it? That’s an extremely ridiculous way to go about combating it. And a very sad way to look at it.

Not everyone can be perfect. And Malkie, I am almost certain you aren’t either.

quote:

Originally posted by malkie:

quote:

Malkie, you fork out to keep prisoners healthy.

Not out of choice. Personally I'd have them reparing our aging rail network to contribute to society while continuing to be prisoners.

A criminal chooses to break the law, and get's punished. An obese person chooses to be fat and hence should be punished.

I'd extend that to any lifestyle choice which results in me paying for someone's upkeep. Furthermore I'd also make the unemployed do community service each week to get their benefits.

Well that pretty much sums up your stance on society then. Fair enough.

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quote:

You fork out to take care of babies that were born deformed due to their mothers using drugs during pregnancy.

That's hardly the baby's fault, now is it?

Can you appreciate the difference ?

Yeah but with your logic/opinion the mother should do have to pay for the baby's upkeep. That's what I meant.

quote:

Obese people bring it on themselves and should be made to pay for their own healthcare.

You can't continue to apply the most basic scientific principles at the social level. That would lead you to some very unrealistic conclusions (e.g most drugs pass in animals and fail in humans - catch my drift? It's a massive oversight). I refer you to Joe's post above as it is worded perfectly enough.