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it seems harsh to punish just a few select illnesses, diseases or excesses.

I'm only suggesting punishing self inflicted diseases.

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ban cerain products advertising at all

already happens

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I have no issue with 40% tax, its for the people that earn too much

earn too much ? How can anyone earn too much ? That's subjective nonsense.

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All those things that you loathe paying for later, are things that helped you get here today

Such as ?

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Originally posted by malkie:

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it seems harsh to punish just a few select illnesses, diseases or excesses.

I'm only suggesting punishing self inflicted diseases.

I know, I answered you by saying what is and isnt self inflicted, thats the issue Malkie, you know the big one you are trying to avoid. Many illnesses can be classed as self inflicted, who made you the GP.

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ban cerain products advertising at all

already happens.

Yes not on all products, and not fairly. Again the point people are trying to make.

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[

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I have no issue with 40% tax, its for the people that earn too much

earn too much ? How can anyone earn too much ? That's subjective nonsense.

What like people eating too much?? Is it easier for you to use subjective nonsense when you see fat people, making it easier to judge. Well similar approach, if you see someone in a Rolls they probably earn more than their fare share. But no money and its fair distribution has absolutely nothing to do with society and its ills. Not at all. LOL

The 40% bracket that you are trying to moan about, is a product of how much you earn. Subjective or not, you are in the higher bracket, again complain to those who make the rules, dont just take out your anger on those that eat more than you do, many probably dont earn as much as you do, so it all balances out.

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All those things that you loathe paying for later, are things that helped you get here today

Such as ?

Is that a request for evidence again Malkie??

Education, health, roads, blah blah blah. And no Im absolutely sure you didnt use any of these facilities, you were probably born on some small island, educated yourself and have never been ill due to your pure lifestyle and massive head. LOL whatever Malkie.

i think this thread should be re-named "Re-Tax the Fat" because the fat are indeed already taxed!here are some rare & precious facts to back up this statement.....
Certain items of food and drink are taxable at the rates of 12.5% or 21%. Food liable under the 12.5% band include flour or egg based products such as pizza, cakes, biscuits, etc...FACT!
Food liable under the 21% band include confectionary, fizzy drinks, crisps, chocolates, ice cream etc.....FACT!
Lots of bad food=lots of tax=lots of money to pay for education, healthcare etc....simple enough?
Maybe this well put an end to the argument that fat people don't pay extra tax.

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Originally posted by malkie:

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What would you like your tax revenue spent on Malkie, what is the ideal system??

A system whereby people pay for the services they use, rather than the system that we current have were the successful are forced to pay for the lazy.

are we going back to pre-NHS days here, Malkie? the good, bad old days? when only the rich could afford healthcare and the poor didn't have access to medical care. Thats why NHS came into existence: to care for all: rich and poor. Presently, if the rich can afford it and want to they can jump the queue by going private spending their hard earned cash looking after themselves instead of looking after the fatties, the junkies, the old etc...Your ideal system, which doesn't exist in any Western country at least: they all have some form of welfare system, would see us revert to the bad old days of the workhouse......

anyway, have to finish for now. We keep going off-topic, you seem to hate everything and everyone that takes your tax money. Unfortunately, that is the only way society and our country holds together. You should find a way to deal with that.

Do not tax the LARD!!! it is my friend! and the beef dripping!!!

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Presently, if the rich can afford it and want to they can jump the queue by going private spending their hard earned cash looking after themselves instead of looking after the fatties, the junkies, the old etc...

more nonsense.

Having private healthcare doesn't save you from paying tax to look after the groups who refuse to look after themselves.

And again: You've chosen to apply the most basic science of obesity and anorexia to the social (significantly more complex) level. Would you get confused when in vitro results don't correspond to in vivo results? If yes, that in my opinion would make you a very poor scientist. If no then how can you compare the basic physiology of "eating too much makes you fat" to the sociopsychology of the 'vast array of reasons and motivations that people have towards overeating'?

because what they put into their mouth is a choice - it doesn't matter why they make poor choices, the bottom line is that I shouldn't have to be paying for it.

Most things can be classed as choice. Some unemployed waster would probably say they chose not to work, where as you chose you to. So these are your choices, live with em.

Likewise we dont all drive, dont all shoot people, dont all get ill, dont all commit crime, but we do all pay for these things.ie we do pay for roads, we did pay for much of our public transport (still funding now), we do pay for guns and our armed forces, we do pay for police and their toys. Again this is society and what pay for. Other than direct funding of your paticular interests within tax, I dont see how you will change this, or what you are arguning for.

The fairest tax would be one based on what you earn, as is the current way, but that doesnt seem to please you, and its very clear why.

Fair trade would be a good step forward, at least get people paying the same for their foods. Again hate to add to the junk debate, but you can get a basic meal from most of the big junkies for under £1, they aim for this point for obvious reasons. And no generally speaking, in the same world, its very hard to get any sort of food for under a £1, even a sandwich from most places cost more, yet one clearly requires more. Again compare the likes of milk and soya milk. Soya milk costa round 70p a litre for the cheaper stuff, generally costs around £1 or more. How do you get cheaper milk from cows than you do beans?? Economies of scale, subsidisation and generally a product that becomes increasingly poor.

We have to pay the real price of our food. I dont generally think tax on food is a good thing, but it may have to be done if we continue to eat for as much for pleasure as we do resource, but lets start with the basic, charge a minimum of what it cost to produce.

If it has effects on our health, our environment etc then yes we should have a special tax on it, something to pay for the damage it causes. Highly unlikely Im sure, but no doubt British farming alone needs a new line to take. Better healthier but more expensive food is the only answer. Or carry on ignoring it, and live the typical western lifestyle and get typical western diseases and symptoms. Maybe we should limit foods in the same way as the Dutch do with cannabis. We appreciate excessive intake of certain foods is far from ideal, and many try to balance the bad with a few months of diet a year, where as the better solution would be to live a better life all the time. But no I wouldnt go as far to say its all down to the person. Otherwise we are saying marketing does not exist or work, and these people are just greedy. Again we cant even really say if greed is an addition or not, many would say yes. Again you will say they still had to start somewhere, but as we all know, these are foods, and none of us treat them with undue fear or respect anyway. Often its too late by the time the addiction is gained.

Unfortunetly we do know marketing exists and works, we have McDonalds all over world to prove it, even in places that seem to have so little else. We also have the mclibel pair to prove that not everyone is happy with it, nor with the innocence that they play at. Again, before you blame the end of the chain, sort out the beginning.

Many would also argue our health system is more likely to be made bankrupt paying massive costs to pharmas for the next gen wonder drug, than trying to cater to a generally fatter clientele.

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Originally posted by malkie:
because what they put into their mouth is a choice - it doesn't matter why they make poor choices, the bottom line is that I shouldn't have to be paying for it.

You haven't quite answered the question have you? If you agree that animal results are applied to humans only when the complex difference are taken into account, how can you apply the basic science of obesity to the social level?

I don't care about the science of obesity at the social level. There is no reason for anyone to be obese, and there's no reason why anyone can't lose weight - I certainly shouldn't have to be funding their healthcare if they choose to be obese.

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The fairest tax would be one based on what you earn, as is the current way, but that doesnt seem to please you, and its very clear why.

Why should people who earn more pay more tax? Why is that fair?

I only have one car, I only use one road at a time, I only use one doctor, I only use one police squad etc etc. Yet I pay more than the guy next door just because I have a better job - why is that fair ?

Furthermore, because I have a half decent job I actually pay a higher percentage per pound than the guy next door - how on earth is that fair?

I dont care about your tax bracket. How is it fair you have a job that pays more than the average, what enabled you to get this job?? Why do certain people deserve so much more pay, and often why do the same people expect everyone else to pay for them to be educated??

As seen on Question time from the young wannabe doctor. Why shouldnt the binmen pay for her education, one day she will help them. Yes and one day every week they probably empty her bins. Life often isnt fair, and this attitude you have, although very modern, isnt appreciated by all, and isnt very pro society. Im sorry if you dont agree with the way it is, but as you would say Malkie, you need to talk to your government, they represent you, and therefore its all in their hands. Im absolutely positive theirs many people in the 40% bracket that agree with you.

You pay more as a percentage as you earn more. If you take 40% of someone who earns £12000 a year, they may struggle to live in this over inflated economic period. I believe the idea is to reduce the ever growing gap between the rich and poor, but again Im sur ein your eyes the poor did it to themselves. Again this will be part of the science you dont care about.

Personally I would also cap wages, I do not see it as acceptable that some people EVER earn that level of money. I would prefer it if our IR chased down more of the big boys who directly go out of their way to avoid paying their fair share, its even more criminal that they try to avoid this payment than those at the other end, who often do take a little more where they can, the difference being to survive than to hoarde. No it doesnt make benefit fraud acceptable or the extreme users of the welfare system any less annoying, but they are the few, and this is the system we have. I dont think we will move on as a civilisation removing these protection systems, but I do think we could abuse them less with better education and more options for all. Yes there are probably jobs for all, but many of our nation dont want those jobs, which is why we often have immigrants working more in certain areas. We may call that snobbish, but we are all part of this as well, we have more going to university every year, with no guarantee that we can all get worthwhile jobs, whatever that maybe. This is why we have the safety nets, and why we all have to pay our share, like or not.

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I dont care about your tax bracket.

I can easily guess why.

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How is it fair you have a job that pays more than the average

Because I work hard, have a job with serious responsibilities, and pay a major role in the productivity of the company I work for. My hard work makes them good money and I'm rewarded for that.

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what enabled you to get this job??

Extremely hard work on my part. There's nothing stopping anyone getting ahead in life.

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Why do certain people deserve so much more pay, and often why do the same people expect everyone else to pay for them to be educated??

Again, it's all to do with responsibilities. I don't expect anyone to pay anything for me. Infact, I pay out a significant amount of money each month in way of insurance so that no matter what ever happens to me I'll be covered. I'd never look to the government for handouts as I don't believe they should use taxes to support the lazy.

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Personally I would also cap wages

Then where would incentives to work hard come from? You'd effectively kill our country's economy with a crazy plan like that.

Malkie... Tell me, are you male or female?

Easy question for you to answer there...

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I dont care about your tax bracket.


I can easily guess why.

But you havent, let me fill in the gaps for you, its because you dont seem to care about anyone else but you. Truly your tax will never be highquote:
How is it fair you have a job that pays more than the average

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Because I work hard, have a job with serious responsibilities, and pay a major role in the productivity of the company I work for. My hard work makes them good money and I'm rewarded for that. enough.

So do many, but dont get just rewards. Such is life. Many worked hard for many more years than you have Malkie, and still had their industry removed from them. Some do earn it yes, many dont, and many dont care if they do or dont. Again this is life.

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what enabled you to get this job??


Extremely hard work on my part. There's nothing stopping anyone getting ahead in life.

You missed the point or are avoiding it again. I dont care what your opinion is. Did you to school here, university here?? Things that not every has used or wishes to fund either, but they do, it may benefit others, one day their own offspring.

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Why do certain people deserve so much more pay, and often why do the same people expect everyone else to pay for them to be educated??

Again, it's all to do with responsibilities. I don't expect anyone to pay anything for me. Infact, I pay out a significant amount of money each month in way of insurance so that no matter what ever happens to me I'll be covered. I'd never look to the government for handouts as I don't believe they should use taxes to support the lazy.

Yes you do, or did, even you Malkie had at least a few years where you didnt work, did use the resources of society. If you think in terms of paying of what you have used, maybe it will make it easier to open your wallet. Again this is sort of the principle of tax, I bet money Ive used less services, less roads, less schooling, so my lesser rate is probably quite logical.

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Personally I would also cap wages


Then where would incentives to work hard come from? You'd effectively kill our country's economy with a crazy plan like that.

Many would argue you shouldnt need incentives to work hard, many enjoy their work, and those that dont tend to get paid less than more, so already its far from an incentive, which may I add is why many do abuse benefits, as the first run of the employment ladder pays far less. We also heard the same scared remarks in response to the minimum wage. We didnt want that as it would give more to the lower level workers, but yes any mention of an upper limit would effect our nation. Like most of this economic sector bank fairly, pay a decent share of taxes, dont invest in foriegn properties and businesses, and wouldnt take their resources the moment it was economically logical to do so is hilarious. Theres very little nationalism involved in personal greed, which you display perfectly well.

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its because you dont seem to care about anyone else but you.

LOL. You couldn't be more wrong. I've dedicated my life to helping others, including the sick and the needy. I'm not talking about donating money to charity, I'm talking about making an actual difference to the lives of others.

I post that I'm against my taxes being used to help the lazy and the unwilling, but you read that I hate everyone and want all of my money for myself. Gross generalisation there, and completely inaccurate.

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Many worked hard for many more years than you have Malkie

um what ? How many years have I been working for now? More nonsense generalisations.

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Did you to school here, university here?? Things that not every has used or wishes to fund either, but they do, it may benefit others, one day their own offspring.

Yes, I went to university twice, and paid for all of it myself. However, further education is available to all - it's a public service and actually benefits society by improving education.

However, catering to lazy fat people who are unwilling to change has no benefits to society. Nor has encouraging teenage girls to get pregnant because they know it's a ticket to a paid-for flat and benefits.

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I bet money Ive used less services, less roads, less schooling

um what ? you are resorting to posting nonsensical rhetoric which has no place in a grown-up debate.


Like I said on the previous page, I can't understand why you down on me because I'm unhappy that my taxes are being used as benefits for the lazy and the unwilling.

Do you honestly think that it's a good idea to take money out of my pocket and give it to someone who can't be bothered to get a job?

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I post that I'm against my taxes being used to help the lazy and the unwilling, but you read that I hate everyone and want all of my money for myself. Gross generalisation there, and completely inaccurate.

Saying that all fat people are lazy and unwilling is one Gross generalisation and completely inaccurate according to the many scientific experts that contribute to the World Health Organization. Yes?

Where did I say that all fat people are lazy and unwilling ? I didn't, you are just jumping to that conclusion.

However, seeing that it's possible for anyone to lose weight then you could argue that all obese people who want to lose weight simply aern't trying hard enough. They certainly aren't lazy or unwilling, just not willing enough.

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There is no reason for anyone to be obese, and there's no reason why anyone can't lose weight - I certainly shouldn't have to be funding their healthcare if they choose to be obese

Sorry, I really can't agree with this comment. Probably the most powerful factor in the world is the human brain.

In some cases people become genuinely additced to food, wither totally addicted and want to eat all the time, or they associate food with certain emotions, e.g. big, luxury dinners when celebrating, or ice cream and chocolate as comfort food.

It's not just a case of waking up one day and deciding to eat less. It's facing a whole host of emotional and social problems.
You face the addictions - the intense cravings, the desire for food you like rather than healthy food you don't. You then give in and feel like a failure because you had one measly chocolate biscuit - so you feel guilty and depressed- which makes you think "I've already failed, whats the point in trying?" and you comfort eat to make yourself feel better. Every time you leave the house you are bombarded with temptation, from the adverts in the street to the row upon row of chocolate and crisps in the local newsagent. Even if you manage to get round the supermarket picking up only salad you then have to queue at the till staring at - you've guessed it - more chocolate.
You probably still want a social life - so you see your friends. If they want to go out for a meal/ get a take away/ go for a beer do you go with them - and feel like cr*p all night because of the temptations, or sit at home alone and miserable? Oh, and if you watch TV you get all the adverts there as well, making it harder.
Then there's all the cr*p they put in foods these days - msg being the perfect example. Pringles - once you pop you can't stop! Like that's helping.

The point is losing weight isn't all that easy. It often means a complete change of lifestyle which is even harder when it seems like todays society is out to make you fail.

I have battled with my weight, although I've never been obese. And I smoke. Am I a bad person? I messed up once - at 15 and had a drag. I've been horribly addicted ever since - I've tried time and time again to quit but the cravings just come back stronger. If you've been addicted to something, or never had to make those sort of changes, you can't know what it feels like.

Again avoid what people say, wriggle out what youve said yourself and deny what you are generally saying. Well dont attack us for filling in the gaps Malkie, you left them.

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LOL. You couldn't be more wrong. I've dedicated my life to helping others, including the sick and the needy. I'm not talking about donating money to charity, I'm talking about making an actual difference to the lives of others.

I post that I'm against my taxes being used to help the lazy and the unwilling, but you read that I hate everyone and want all of my money for myself. Gross generalisation there, and completely inaccurate.

As long as they are sick in the right way, a way you find appropriate?? Can we have more details of the diseaeses/illnesses we should aim for to qualify for your taxes??

You post youre against your taxes being used for the greedy and unwilling=Gross generalisation there, and completely inaccurate. This is what we are getting at, its not upto you to decide what the taxes are going on, its for many things, and as explained a few times, many people dont like wat they pay for either, Ive just heard less predujiced reasons than the ones you provide. But hey Im sure many others love your rhetoric.

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Many worked hard for many more years than you have Malkie

um what ? How many years have I been working for now? More nonsense generalisations.

Approx 12-17 years Malkie. And the point stands, even if you worked double that, some would have worked longer and harder than you, and still have not recieved your rewards. Its not nonsense generalisations, its just a fact you dont like to admit. Many people work very hard, but to be totally honest lets not go overboard, compared to our predecessors we are all lazy. Not all in the employment office are lazy, like not all that work are deserving. But again we love your wild generalisations, they produce the hate you talk of. Maybe stop using your backside to talk with??

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Did you to school here, university here?? Things that not every has used or wishes to fund either, but they do, it may benefit others, one day their own offspring.

Yes, I went to university twice, and paid for all of it myself. However, further education is available to all - it's a public service and actually benefits society by improving education.

However, catering to lazy fat people who are unwilling to change has no benefits to society. Nor has encouraging teenage girls to get pregnant because they know it's a ticket to a paid-for flat and benefits.

Well you say it improves society by improving education, I do hope your not the example.

You didnt pay for university all yourself, and if you did you would of been ground breaking. We still dont pay all of it now, although we are closer than we have ever been. Generally people have been asked to pay for themselves while going to university, including accomadation, rarely have students played for all their books and resources. This is still covered in part by our taxes, as has always been, and some never planned to go to university, why should they pay for you to be educated and arrogant??

Personally I think they should, this is what taxes are for, and what society stands for, not just paying for what you want.

Its a public service?? Yes indeed, like our hospitals.

Again maybe we need to define fat people, as you seem to struggle with it. Are we talking truly obese US standard, cant be moved from the house without a crane, or we talking about the masses, because as I see it we are a growing nation. We do eat very well, and our general size is increasing, but I could also say most people are fatter than me. At what stage should I look for the laziness to kick in. My Nans overweight, and has been for 30 years, and she still seems to more than most people half her age. Before I get into the nitty gritty of your nonsense, where is the proof that the general overweight are any less capable of doing what they wish?

I do agree in a way that we shouldnt encourage people to become fat, or to become pregnant as meal ticket, but this is not what the system is for. The system is to protect young mothers who may be left in poor situations. Im sure you understand this, and your attacks are based on the few who do seem to do as you say to gain more resources. The problem is we dont know, and really we have left ourselves in the posistion that we cant comment on others lifes. It is generally seen as a god given right to have childr