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Originally posted by Thewitchisback:
Hey, what happened to Angelus the Vampire's post. I thought it was very interesting, and not offensive like Malkie's (it didn't discriminate against fat folk, make offhand comments about concentration camps, or have a go at single mothers), but it's just disappeared!

Probably the post where I invited Malkie to contact my Hospital Consultant and tell the Cosultanat that taking high doses of steroids would no way increase my weight.

I gave out the Hospital`s name. Which is prob the reason it got deleted. Which is strange, because in other discussions in the newsboards I`ve given out the area where I live and the posts were not deleted. I suppose it depends upon the moderator.

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Furthermore, there's nothing stopping anyone getting a "well paid job" other than their own gumption.

Sorry Malkie - but I doubt you will find many people to agree with you on that. There's plenty of hard working people, who are good at their jobs but are stuck on low pay. Being low pay doesn't automatically mean ajob is less valuable. Getting a high paid job usually also means having the right education/ qualifications/ skills/ experience etc. Not everyone has the appropriate things to do so. And finally there are plenty of people in high paid jobs who don't work hard, they just happen to be in the right industry. Personally I would rather do something worthwhile for a moderate wage, than some pretentious job that pays higher.

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Originally posted by malkie:

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Originally posted by Angelus the Vampire:

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Anyway, you clearly have a lot of disposable income to play with and use for insurance and investments. Lucky you.


I knew I'd get a gripe like that. My insurance is £35 a month.

£35 a month?

Is that medical insurance?

Because I have a "small" mortgage of £100,000, and my mortgage protction insurance against illness or redundancy is over £50 a month.

I do not have a seperate medical insurance, as no medical insurance company will take on my case with my current medical history, never mind taking into account my family predispostion for cancer.

We also have life assurance cover that will pay off the mortgage should either of us die. That costs us almost £120 a month .

So, what, exactly does YOUR £35 a month cover?

I've posted at length what my £35 covers. Like I stated in a previous post - you don't know how old I am, you don't know how much mortgage I've got, or my state of health. Furthermore, and importantly, you don't know how long I've been paying my premium, and if I've been paying a fixed rate of insurance since day 1. You can't compare insurance prices today with those from years gone by (providing you bought a fixed rate policy)

No, it isn't medical insurance - my employer pays for my medical insurance, I don't..

Your empoloyer pays for your medical insurance?? Well that says it all, really. No wonder you have so much disposable income.

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Which means you end up paying more than some snot nosed little toerag sitting pretty in a well paid job looking down his nose at the less unfortunate.

bitter are we?.[/QUOTE]

Bitter? no, actually I`m not. Both my husband and I are proud to have served our country. Helping the less fortunate. But your arrogance in astounding. Lucky you for having a well paid job. Well done for having the vision to invest for your future. Pity that in your drive to protect yourself, you lost any tolerence for those less fortunate than yourself.

You married? you`ve made no mention about a wife and children.

No one gets forced into the armed forces - it's a choice - you (or anyone else) doesn't *have* to work there.

It`s a well paid job, in certain circumstances.

Furthermore, there's nothing stopping anyone getting a "well paid job" other than their own gumption.

[/QUOTE]Well, actually, I thought I was in a well paid job until someone on the newsboards said that the national average wage is £25K. Which I am nowhere near close. Well under by several thousand pounds in fact.

Ahem. Back to the topic at hand. If you can't provide an eloquent and concise response to the following post, your argument in this debate collapses.

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I went to great lengths to find the scientific publications which support my claims - I'm not that bothered if you don't agree with them.

Well I have quoted numerous portions from the papers you went to great lengths to find and have clearly shown that they in no way support your claims. Saying that they do doesn't make it so. That paper shows that with doctors advice, people are more likely to attempt to loose weight. It doesn't say that they actually loose weight. I need evidence that significant weight loss can be acheived with zero health risk and minimum effort. Where is it? You haven't provided any such evidence.

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Not 'social science' and 'social medicine'

In your opinion, give me a brief definition of social science please.

You claim that obesity is a decision but you cited a paper that called it a neuro-behavioural disease. If you don't beleive the paper, why should I?

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I gave out the Hospital`s name. Which is prob the reason it got deleted.

LOL, or alternatively it was because you resorted to name calling and profanity. (or did you forget that bit?)

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There's plenty of hard working people, who are good at their jobs but are stuck on low pay.

"Stuck" on low wages ? Lacking in gumption more like. Nothing stopping anything getting ahead.

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Getting a high paid job usually also means having the right education/ qualifications/ skills/ experience etc.

and what's stopping anyone gaining qualifications, improving their skill set and gaining experience at the same time ?

Absolutely nothing other than their own gumption.

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Personally I would rather do something worthwhile for a moderate wage, than some pretentious job that pays higher.

I totally agree, and the joy of my job is that it's well paid and extremely worthwhile for society.

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Your empoloyer pays for your medical insurance?? Well that says it all, really. No wonder you have so much disposable income.

Sorry, where have I stated how much disposable income I have? Jumping to conclusions are we?

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Bitter? no, actually I`m not. Both my husband and I are proud to have served our country. Helping the less fortunate.

Like I said above, my job is extremely worthwhile for society as a whole.

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Lucky you for having a well paid job.

Luck has nothing to do with it. Why do bitter people always say this ?

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Pity that in your drive to protect yourself, you lost any tolerence for those less fortunate than yourself.

There's no such thing as "less fortunate" - you have to make your own way in life and create your own "fortune". It's amazing how I progressed in life with increased effort.

People are lazy, and want everything for nothing - it's not surprising they find themselves in a "less fortunate" position.

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You married? you`ve made no mention about a wife and children.

Put that into some revelant context and I'll happily answer your question.

MALKIE: LOL, or alternatively it was because you resorted to name calling and profanity. (or did you forget that bit?)

I think it was probably because of the personal details, Malkie. If it had been for being offensive and nasty, yours would have been deleted many times...

MALKIE: There's no such thing as "less fortunate" - you have to make your own way in life and create your own "fortune". It's amazing how I progressed in life with increased effort.

You didn't progress as much as me, and I made hardly any effort at all...

MALKIE: Furthermore, there's nothing stopping anyone getting a "well paid job" other than their own gumption

... and usually the willingness to tramp all over other people on the way to get there...

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"Stuck" on low wages ? Lacking in gumption more like. Nothing stopping anything getting ahead.

Malkie –you have no idea do you?

Some sectors are notorious for bad pay. They are still necessary, important jobs. The people doing these jobs are needed by society – whether they are nurses or binmen. They require hard work as much as any other job – but in many cases there is no opportunity to earn above a certain low rate of pay – unless you quit the industry. So, if you believe all people in low jobs should get ahead and earn more, you are suggesting that nurses etc all walk out and find new jobs. PR perhaps? So what would happen to the people going into hospital where there are no nurses?
The same could be said for people who work for small businesses or charities. Working as a kennel worker for one of the large rehoming charities - a worthy cause in my opinion – and requiring hard work , long hours, weekend work, manual labour etc. The pay? Only 12k.
The only way people in certain jobs could get more pay (without quitting) would be for the industry to start paying more, but this is not always possible. Can you imagine a small business owner having to fork out wages of 20, 30, 40k for a shop assistant? The business would fold.

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and what's stopping anyone gaining qualifications, improving their skill set and gaining experience at the same time ?

Getting qualified? Firstly, not everyone has the same skills, talents, and abilities. These do not necessarily match up with the high paid jobs. I will never be a highly paid chemist – because I am crap at chemistry. I have tried and tried, but it just doesn’t make sense in my head. I can’t do it. As for getting recognised qualifications – lets take uni as an obvious example. Many jobs today -especially the higher paid ones – require a degree. Which is expensive. Since they scrapped student grants and increased fees the price is getting higher and higher. Not everyone can afford it. Even before this point they need A levels – which means staying on at school past the age where education is free. If their parents can’t pay for it they have to fund it themselves. There are only so many hours in day – should they go out to work as well, in order to pay for their education, or stay in and work hard to get good results?

Location is another factor. I could get a higher wage if I worked in London – are you suggesting I quit my job and apply for one in the capital? Unfortunately, the money wouldn’t stretch that far – I would still not be able to afford to live in London, and the cost of commuting would bankrupt me.

Getting ahead takes a combination of both hard work, and luck. I worked hard at school, got good exam results, got into uni, worked hard some more and got a first class honours degree, which enabled me to walk into a job soon after graduating. But luck had a lot to do with it. I was lucky enough that my parents funded me through my A levels, and helped to fund me through uni so I didn’t have to work. (Interestingly – all my uni mates that had to work as well as study got lower grades or dropped out because they didn’t have as much time to dedicate to their studies.)

Sorry, but it takes a lot more than “gumption” to get a high paid job.

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Malkie –you have no idea do you?

That's not really much of a come back, considering I've given you ample chance to give specific examples to counter my points.

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Some sectors are notorious for bad pay.

Yet no one *has* to work in those sectors - people are free to accept any jobs they want.

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So what would happen to the people going into hospital where there are no nurses?

Say 50% of nurses left their jobs tomorrow. Suddenly there would be a huge demand for nurses and wages would increase to attract people into this field. Problem solved.

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The same could be said for people who work for small businesses or charities. Working as a kennel worker for one of the large rehoming charities - a worthy cause in my opinion – and requiring hard work , long hours, weekend work, manual labour etc. The pay? Only 12k.

Again, no one is forcing them into this line of work.

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Can you imagine a small business owner having to fork out wages of 20, 30, 40k for a shop assistant? The business would fold.

You are totally missing my point. You claimed that people are "stuck" on low wages - I'm merely pointing out that they are willing to accept low wages.

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Firstly, not everyone has the same skills, talents, and abilities.

Nothing stopping anyone getting the same skills and abilities. Talent is subjective and everyone has their own 'talent' - they just need to find it.

I doubt Wayne Rooney could design a rocket, but he's found his talent and certainly gets paid well for it.

I doubt Robbie Williams could perform heart surgery, but he's found his talent and he's going ok.

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Not everyone can afford it.

If you can't afford it, then it gets paid for you. Or you can take out loans like everyone else.

All you've got is sob stories about how it isn't straight forward to walk into a three figure job. NEWSFLASH! I never said it was easy, infact I've commented on my own hard work. I'm simply pointing out that there is nothing stopping anyone, and you've said nothing which convinces me otherwise.

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Location is another factor.

No it isn't, it's just another excuse.

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I could get a higher wage if I worked in London – are you suggesting I quit my job and apply for one in the capital?

If you want to earn more than you have to do what is necessary. If you are unwilling to do so then you can't claim that you are "stuck".

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Unfortunately, the money wouldn’t stretch that far – I would still not be able to afford to live in London, and the cost of commuting would bankrupt me.

Millions of people live in London. They aren't all on three figures, so why couldn't you move there?

What about the thousands of students and postgrads - how do they afford it?

How do the animal support staff who work at UCL, KCL, Imperial, Novartis etc etc afford it? (using them as an example as I know that's your line of work).

Again, all you have are excuses, not genuine barriers standing in your way.

Besides, London isn't the centre of the university - plenty of extremely well paid jobs and careers no where near london.

(Oil and IT in Aberdeen, Finance in Glasgow and Newcastle etc etc etc etc)

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Getting ahead takes a combination of both hard work, and luck.

I agree with hard work, but 'luck' is a complete joke. There's no such thing as 'luck' - what you think is 'luck', is simply the preplanning and hard work of others. You have to remember that many successful people are modest and might say "oh, I was in the right place at the right time", but when you realise they put months of effort into a job interview, or obtained the appropriate qualification which is appreciated by a certain company you'll see that 'luck' had nothing to do with it.

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I worked hard at school, got good exam results, got into uni, worked hard some more and got a first class honours degree, which enabled me to walk into a job soon after graduating.

But what have you done since then? What have you done to separate you from the rest of the honours degree holders? Where's your post-grad qualifications, or professional qualifications?

While this might sound offensive, why have you settled for a animal technicians role after getting such a good degree mark? Why aren't you at the fore-front of drug discovery, or running an academic lab of students?

Would it be fair to say you've settled for your current position, and don't want more?

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and helped to fund me through uni so I didn’t have to work.

Personally I'd argue that wasn't a good thing. Most of the really successful people I know had to fund themselves through Uni. It's character building and really educates you in hard graft and time management.

Nothing like working an 8 hour shift then writing a paper. It really develops your work skills and ability to be adaptable and meet deadlines.

The converse (and I'm not saying you are), are those students who have everything paid for them, and don't have to work hard at Uni because they've got a load of spare time to do it in. They leave Uni and the 'real world' is a shock to them and they simply can't cope.

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Sorry, but it takes a lot more than “gumption” to get a high paid job.

Like I said above you've provided nothing but sob stories and excuses.

MALKIE: Say 50% of nurses left their jobs tomorrow. Suddenly there would be a huge demand for nurses and wages would increase to attract people into this field. Problem solved.

I don't think so. Where is the NHS going to find all this extra money. You'd have to tax more than the fat folk, you'd have to any groups of people with any kind of illness or injury that could be attributed to a life choice, which I would imagine would take in just about everyone. Even walking out your front door and falling down the steps would be a life choice. At the moment, there is such a dearth of nurses that wards have to rely on bank staff,which is good neither for team spirit necessary in hospitals, or to a feeling of continuity in health care for patients. I can't believe even you could make such a stupid statement, Malkie.

MALKIE: Personally I'd argue that wasn't a good thing. Most of the really successful people I know had to fund themselves through Uni. It's character building and really educates you in hard graft and time management.


Tosh! Whether you like their policies or not, most of the people running this country at the moment didn't have to fund themselves through college, and have quite conveniently pulled the ladder up after themselves. I'd imagine they are earning a bit more money than you are, and have a bit more responsibility, like having a finger on the nuclear button.

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While this might sound offensive...

You ARE offensive Malkie – almost every sentence you have written on this thread is to insult everyone else on here, belittle their own hard work and efforts and blow your own trumpet. You rave on about your own hard work but deny anyone else has done the same. You imply that you’re some sort of saint, that you never make mistakes and have planned for every eventuality. You refuse to accept that anyone earning less than a fortune, or who is not a saint in terms of looking after their health, is somehow inferior to your grand self. I pity you. I may not have your impressive salary, but nor do I have your arrogance and for that I am truly grateful.

Oh and to answer one of those questions… yes I have settled for being an animal technician, but I have not “settled”. I continue to build upon my education and experience, but I imagine I will always be an animal tech. I don’t care that I will never be rich – I don’t need that sort of money – but I love my job, and I feel it is worthwhile both regarding animal welfare and human health. My job is worthwhile and valuable. I may be only a lowly animal tech – but I’m gonna be the best da*n animal tech there is!

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You rave on about your own hard work but deny anyone else has done the same.

Where did I say that ? Could you try reading what I actually posted, and not what you think I posted.

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You refuse to accept that anyone earning less than a fortune, or who is not a saint in terms of looking after their health, is somehow inferior to your grand self

Where did I say anyone was inferior ? Could you try reading what I actually posted, and not what you think I posted.

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but I imagine I will always be an animal tech.

Then you prove exactly what I am saying. Only thing stopping you progressing is yourself.

I must say I agree with Malkie on this one. If one has all their limbs and all their stations intact, then there is an element of choice in what they end up doing with their lives. But before things get personal, if welfarist has chosen to be an animal tech then he shouldn't claim to be 'stuck' but neither should Malkie suggest that he refuses to 'progress'.

But last I checked, this debate was about taxing overweight people. A debate lost by Malkie pages ago.

MALKIE: Where did I say that ? Could you try reading what I actually posted, and not what you think I posted.

What you post, Malkie, leads a lot of people on this forum to agree entirely on Welfarist's excellent summing up of what your posts say about you! I couldn't have put it better myself.

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Originally posted by A-D:
I must say I agree with Malkie on this one. If one has all their limbs and all their stations intact, then there is an element of choice in what they end up doing with their lives. But before things get personal, if welfarist has chosen to be an animal tech then he shouldn't claim to be 'stuck' but neither should Malkie suggest that he refuses to 'progress'.

But last I checked, this debate was about taxing overweight people. A debate lost by Malkie pages ago.

I'm not sure if you are talking about Welfarist's last post, AD. I didn't read it that way... It seemed to me that he really enjoyed his job and felt it worthwhile. It seemed that money wasn't a major factor in his choice, and it certainly isn't the only criteria for job satisfaction or success....

I agree with your summing about about the thread though, and Malkie's position. The thread seems to have lost its way and should probably be given a decent burial...

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Originally posted by Thewitchisback:
MALKIE: LOL, or alternatively it was because you resorted to name calling and profanity. (or did you forget that bit?)

I think it was probably because of the personal details, Malkie. If it had been for being offensive and nasty, yours would have been deleted many times...

Profanity in posts is picked up BEFORE the post reaches the forum.

Name calling? In your imagination.

There was no profanity or name calling at all in the post that has gone missing. Only an invite for you to contact my Hospital Consultant at his hospital for you to tell him that taking large doses of steroids for 8 years does not cause significant weight gain.

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Getting a high paid job usually also means having the right education/ qualifications/ skills/ experience etc.


and what's stopping anyone gaining qualifications, improving their skill set and gaining experience at the same time ?

Absolutely nothing other than their own gumption.

um lets see..... go to Uni, study two years. Apply for jobs in chosen field for third year student placement. Get turned down because there`s no work experience in chosen field on the CV. Gaining experience is the WHOLE point of the student work placement year.

So far my son has applied for nigh on 75 student work placement jobs to start in aug/sept. Those that have bothered to reply have all said they want experienced people. He is still applying, virtually every relevent compnay locally, and going as far afield as Oxford, Gloucester, Surrey, etc etc

>>Millions of people live in London. They aren't all on three figures, so why couldn't you move there?

What about the thousands of students and postgrads - how do they afford it?<<

dur!! Cheap Student housing, of course, how else??? My nephew goes to the london Uni at South Bank.

god, you really are trying to fool people with a load of twaddle, aren`t you?