"Society needs certain services, including healthcare. However, it shouldn't have to cope with the incompetence of others, and I certainly shouldn't be paying for it."

ever bang your thumb with a hammer pal? Or is it posible that you might look the wrong way on the street and inadvertantly cause a crash. Very few problems that the NHS caters for would be left if we always looked for the "incompotent" behind the situation and you have not yet told us how you would separate out the incompetent except for using a phisical marker like being fat. (this is as good as racism I've proved that to my satisfaction.)

Malkie you are just not smart enough to demand perfection from others when you are patently over looking some major failings in your self.
(normaly I argure the point but you've lost... all thats left is to pick apart the straw man you've left behind.)

"What's wrong in coming from the 'right' Cartman? Just because it is different from your political view point ?

Aren't you the one argueing for freedom of expression, and the right to live as they please - but yet you are quick to dismiss someone purely on political stand point."

You keep saying people are misreading you but if you had actually read what I said I totally concceted your right to think as you wish... just pointed out that you views are so exteeem as to make you irrelevant to a serious discusion... a good laugh though keep it up by all means

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ever bang your thumb with a hammer pal? Or is it posible that you might look the wrong way on the street and inadvertantly cause a crash.

Those are accidents. You don't accidentally become obese.

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(normaly I argure the point but you've lost... all thats left is to pick apart the straw man you've left behind.)

and

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... just pointed out that you views are so exteeem as to make you irrelevant to a serious discusion

In other words you have absolutely no come back to the points I'm making. Sure it's me who has "lost" ?

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Sorry, but absolutely none of those cause weight gain. Only what goes into your mouth causes weight gain. If you have a metabolic disorder then you need a controlled diet - same goes for any medication which might impact on appetite.

It's an extremely simple concept to grasp.

dude don't answer me or quote me if you are just going to be a stuck record. I know what you think. You have not offered an argument to back it up so I will ignore it. Two people involved in the medical proffession have said that these are all factors in wieght gain. I have personal experience of someone very close to me who gained wieght after being put on anti-depresents_ does she have do listen to your ignorant denials of her side effects as well as deal with the pain of being stigmatised in a thin obsesed culture? There is more to this than perhaps you are capable of grasping... IT IS NOT VERY SIMPLE... Hey I've got an idea, every time someone comes into the NHS and says "I have a problem" the doctor can shout "THat's not a problem." WE'LL SAVE BUNDLES
"Yeah that's a hella idea"... SWEET... WAnt some powdered donught chocolate suprise... your not stupid you'er big headed

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Those are accidents. You don't accidentally become obese.

no this is people being incompitent... they should have been more careful with the hammer and looked both ways before crossing the road. This is a mirrior of your own arguments....

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In other words you have absolutely no come back to the points I'm making. Sure it's me who has "lost" ?

oh look I am responding again, you still have not understood what I am saying. Your arguments have been ripped to pieces by just about everyone... the reason I am not bothering to entertain anything you say seriously is because all thet needs to bbe said has already been said and would like to discuss this issue with someone who has a worthwhile point to make. Perhaps I should have said you are lost rather than you have lost since what I am trying to get a cross is that you seem incapable of makeing any arguments that are A) different from your fisrt points and hence b) giving me something to seriously ponder. As I say go on The comic releif is worth it... I'm picturing you in your little blue bobble hat and it's yellow trimmings with your cute pudgy face screwed up in out rage "seriousl, you guys... you suck...."

For the grown ups- another question... if we ultimately elliminate all the hard smokeing hard drinking hard eating tough guys out there what will our films books and art be about?

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. I know what you think. You have not offered an argument to back it up so I will ignore it.

um, are you honestly trying to suggest that if a fat person eats less they won't lose weight?

Just one point to make here...

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Those are accidents. You don't accidentally become obese.

Many (although by no means all) accidents happen as a result of incompetance - one way or another. Yet we accept that they are accidents rather than deliberate.

If you don't believe obesity happens by accident are you suggesting it is deliberate, even pre-meditated?

Sorry, but a person doesn't wake up one day and think "I know, my new years resolution is to start eating loads of junk food and stop exercising so I can get really fat just to upset peolpe like Malkie". People don't make a conscious decision to become obese, hence it must happen by accident.

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um, are you honestly trying to suggest that if a fat person eats less they won't lose weight?

Cool, I can engage with this question, of course I am not saying that eating has nothing to do with weight, I am saying that there are many reasons that a person might eat to much that are actually beyond their control. Like:

Depression or mantal illness (they are as legitimate as a physical illness and the whole point is that while in the grip of mental illness a person is not responsible for their actions.)
anti depresants or over efficent metabolism. If you can gain wieght from less food than those around you it becomes hard to gauge how much you should eat. Perhaps you eat no more than you did before your matabolism changed but you now gain more weight. You are asking people to change the habits of a life time and saying it's as simple as that. What if I told you to write useing only your off hand would it be easy? I really can't be bothered to go all all the factors again and again though reread what has been said. No one is questioning this premis mearly whether it is easy or even posible to put into practice. (not that it should matter because:

As I keep saying maybe that person is happy as they are, they do not WANT to loose wieght but have suffered no medical conditions and may never put a strain on the system due to their weight. Like my example about young black males, various reports might sugest that black males were more responsible for crime than another demographic. No one but a racist would go along with taxing all black men extra for the upkeep of prisions just because statistics said they were more likely to be the inmates. If you want to argue that eating is a choice, religion is also a choice that costs society dearly in some ways but pays dividends in the general satisfaction of the people. Similarly if we can't smoke, drink, eat and live within the law as we wish and must be nannied at every turn whats the point of living in society. Futher more you have conceded that we don't tax smokers and drinkers just the products they use .... how do you tax food and not still end up paying the tax yourself?

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Originally posted by malkie:

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. I know what you think. You have not offered an argument to back it up so I will ignore it.

um, are you honestly trying to suggest that if a fat person eats less they won't lose weight?

This is Malkie's mainstay answer, as you will find out, ol'Toby. It's a mantra, along with the fact that overweight people are "fat, lazy and unwilling". He has no truck with folk suffering from Praeder Willi Syndrome (where children think they are suffering from extreme starvation) (they just have to eat less) or Anorexics (despite their high mortality rate) (they just have to eat more). Everything is very simple in Malkieworld, a bit like Malkie really...

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Originally posted by ol' toby:

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um, are you honestly trying to suggest that if a fat person eats less they won't lose weight?

Cool, I can engage with this question, of course I am not saying that eating has nothing to do with weight, I am saying that there are many reasons that a person might eat to much that are actually beyond their control. Like:

Depression or mantal illness (they are as legitimate as a physical illness and the whole point is that while in the grip of mental illness a person is not responsible for their actions.)
anti depresants or over efficent metabolism. If you can gain wieght from less food than those around you it becomes hard to gauge how much you should eat. Perhaps you eat no more than you did before your matabolism changed but you now gain more weight. You are asking people to change the habits of a life time and saying it's as simple as that. What if I told you to write useing only your off hand would it be easy? I really can't be bothered to go all all the factors again and again though reread what has been said. No one is questioning this premis mearly whether it is easy or even posible to put into practice. (not that it should matter because:

As I keep saying maybe that person is happy as they are, they do not WANT to loose wieght but have suffered no medical conditions and may never put a strain on the system due to their weight. Like my example about young black males, various reports might sugest that black males were more responsible for crime than another demographic. No one but a racist would go along with taxing all black men extra for the upkeep of prisions just because statistics said they were more likely to be the inmates. If you want to argue that eating is a choice, religion is also a choice that costs society dearly in some ways but pays dividends in the general satisfaction of the people. Similarly if we can't smoke, drink, eat and live within the law as we wish and must be nannied at every turn whats the point of living in society. Futher more you have conceded that we don't tax smokers and drinkers just the products they use .... how do you tax food and not still end up paying the tax yourself?

I think they should tax cr*p food. You would find that it is the skinny people who can't keep weight on, who would be paying most tax!

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Cool, I can engage with this question, of course I am not saying that eating has nothing to do with weight, I am saying that there are many reasons that a person might eat to much that are actually beyond their control. Like:

Depression or mantal illness

and that accounts for the 2/3rds does it?

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Originally posted by malkie:

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Cool, I can engage with this question, of course I am not saying that eating has nothing to do with weight, I am saying that there are many reasons that a person might eat to much that are actually beyond their control. Like:

Depression or mantal illness

and that accounts for the 2/3rds does it?

Oh, Malkie, this is so like you. You just chopped off ol'Toby's argument in the middle, and didn't list anything else he mentioned like metabolism or medication. How sneaky.... If 2/3rds of the population is overweight, it sounds like slim people are going to suffer the same fate as dodos within the next few years. Better make the most of it before fat folk rule the world!

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and that accounts for the 2/3rds does it?

We would be makeing progress if you admitted it was not fair to tax any of these groups who have not really had much say in their condition. If you'll go along with the two thirds then you must also concede the point that they constitute a majority in a democracy and their interests trump yours... at least when it comes to public medical spending, if you don't like it go else where.

You are also constantly missing the point are you claiming that two thirds of this country is sick? Or will you finally conceed that being over weight is not the same as being sick if you will (crowbar open the old cranium and allow this point.) then you will see that more extreem cases are indeed often related to more extreem mental disorders.

Beyond this point I would like to point out that the fat people you keep trying to tax would have to be functional and productive members of society for this to be any good... hence what are they paying for in the first place? There is no doubt that people should do their utmost to stay in shape and anyone refusing to loose weight if they have had a weight related illness should not be sudsidiesed indefinitely. But have some compasion for others, I think what alienates me and so many others is your dismissal of other people's problems and adversities. If you genuinely want to reduce the number of fat people useing the NHS then a better strategy might be to try to understand their problems better so that you could offer encouragement and worth while advice rather than condemnation. Many fat people would like to loose weight but if anything attitudes like yours only undermine the increadible strength that it often takes to loose the wieght and keep it off. You should want them to loose wieght for their sake not for yours.

PS
I was just reading through an estimate of losses to the country due to weight related health problems(not happy reading I will admit, we all need to try to curb this problem... tax is not the answer but encourragement and openness might be. You don't get drug addicts to quit by judging them but by getting them to admit it if they have a problem and have lost control of their lives)

I did find interesting to note that 30% of the money estimated to be lost through weight related illness is from loss of production due to ill health.... it's a bit rich to tax me on money that I didn't actually earn for the country because I was sick! Though if it's cost you're worried about no one is telling us how much more we would loose through long term pensions if more people do survive. In fact a real problem facing us all is that the baby boomers are leaving the work force and demanding money from pensions that have long been pillaged to pay for other things. There is some rough air ahead how we deal with it and wether we can keep the values that matter to us most is what's really at issue...

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People don't make a conscious decision to become obese, hence it must happen by accident.

I think this is probably one of the bettter points raised here, as it goes straight to the heart of any action... Intent. Fat people do not (unless they are pathalogical) intend to get fat. What we need to do is help them develop and maintain an "intent to loose weight". Not to be thin, some of them will never get that far but they should not be stigmatised firstly because this says more about our own characters than it says about them and secondly because as I have already said it is counter producative. There is a diference between being fat and obese, if we could get everyone to just try to live a bit healthier... not like a robot or an extension of the state (take your protien pills now) but with a genuine understanding of the risks to themselves and society, things might get better. What Coren and the tax the fat crowd are failing to see is that they are just polarising us into two groups, instead of saying"that's a fair point I'll do what I can to loose some weight." people are quite rightly responding "don't you pick on me and lecture me abbout my life style and apearance." It is not about being fat or thin. Or fat= bad and thin=good. As with everything it is about balance, if you draw a line in the sand then why should I think about it again once I cross that line? If you get me to understand that maintaining health is a cnstant proccess, that anything even a walk round a park or one less treat today is improving the situation then there is some hope that I might change my behaviour. I hope that people will because I don't want to see them suffer later on... couldn't give a toss about the money as I say there's enough to waste else where, but for instancee 80% of adult onset diabieties is a result of weight disorders(again not all fat people are at risk but still) Just think if people don't moderate themselves now we might face a future in which we must renounce many of the things that curently bring us so much pleasure. Even a few pounds kept off are better than none, if you can't or don't want to loose weight that is your right or misfortune as an adult but equally as an adult you cannot burry your head in the sand and you should take an interest in your own health. No doubt I'll be accused of another sob story but I genuinly find it sad that people are in this position no one wants to get fat, no one is exampt from the risk of getting fat(hence if we are all at risk we shuld all pay to suport those who are) but if we could foster an attitude of undrstanding and encouragement for others rather than alienating people and sending them back to what is often their only comfort: food, we could beat what is potentaly a national crisis. Bottomline I don't care what shape you are so long as you are trying to do better

I think what we are actually seeing at the moment is not an epidemic of obesity but is evolution in action. We no longer need fit, wiry bodies to run around catching prey and escaping from predators, or the stamina to travel vast distances. We use machines for transport, and have a short dawdle round the shops to hunt for food. We may in the end die off earlier again, as we used to do. Perhaps the longevity many of us enjoy now is a false dawn, somewhere between a short hard life and a short soft one. Perhaps a shorter life is what we are programmed to have.

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think what we are actually seeing at the moment is not an epidemic of obesity but is evolution in action. We no longer need fit, wiry bodies to run around catching prey and escaping from predators, or the stamina to travel vast distances. We use machines for transport, and have a short dawdle round the shops to hunt for food. We may in the end die off earlier again, as we used to do. Perhaps the longevity many of us enjoy now is a false dawn, somewhere between a short hard life and a short soft one. Perhaps a shorter life is what we are programmed to have.

Erm, I can't go along with this, evolution by definition means survival of the fitest.... I think that we should have compassion for others, not judge them and try to help them loose weight for their own good. Thin does NOT = beautiful and good and fat the oposite but anyone trapped in a cycle of consuming anything to excess has a problem. I assume you meant some of this as a joke A side note for those who didn't understand what I meant by over efficent metabolism : rather than overwieght people being the result of new evolution I would say they are the result of old evolution, basicly their matabolisms are better addapted to getting more from less so in our junk food cultures an organism that could survive and function on a few berries and the odd dead squirrel is bound to swell. NOt a good thing...for the organism. it may well be that humanuity will evolve to it's new junk food diet and these people with efficent metabolisms will be the casualties... unfortuantely if they all die off and our modern society and the supply of food is endangered the whole species could be at risk... it's all about being overspecialised kowala's need eucaliptus will we one day need big maC (Shudder)

I'll go along with the life of pleasure argument, you only get one life enjoy it! but we should not kid ourselves. If I accept excess joy today accepting that I will reap misery tomorrow that is my right as an individual but I should be sure that I have genuinely understood the consiquences of my actions and to a certain extent I should not expect too much sympathy for the reprocussions. ie if you said "I am going to run into this wall" and I said "no you could break your nose" but you ran into it anyway. I would help you pick yourself up and get you to a doctor, I would be unhappy that you were in pain but you did just run into the wall face first... before certain parties start going on about choice again I will point out that this analagy is mearly to illustrate the extreem case of free will haveing consequences. Some people can't help but be self destructive for one reason or another, or are sick or the victims of cercomstance , but it does no good to sugar coat the truth... being fat or any excess is not good for you and you will posibly suffer for it... I don't say this with any relish far from it, I'll even ignollage that I too might one day face these problems but I do recognise them as problems. I must, an adult weighs the consiquences of their actions then chooses (as best they can). Haveing said that, life is a game that no one wins... it's all in how you play

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it's all about being overspecialised kowala's need eucaliptus will we one day need big maC (Shudder)

(and don't forget the supersized giant coke... )