quote:

Sorry, but how does being depressed force food into their mouths?

Let me put this simply. Various medical conditions, including depression, affect the brain and/ or a persons mental state. Emotions also influence our mental state, e.g. being unhappy or nervous.
Our conscious, and often subconscious, bhaviour is governed by... surprise surprise... the brain and mental state.
Hence - if something affects your brain/ mental state it will affect your behaviour.

Ach! Lets try this again.

quote:

I'm fully aware that some children will develop into lazy and unwilling adults, but I'm happy to take my chance on the ones that won't.

Hence it stands to reason that if you're happy to fund a cause that the majority benefit from but the minority take advantage of, then you should be happy to fund free healthcare for all even though a minority are "lazy and unwilling" right? That's precisely where you contradict yourself.

quote:

how does being depressed force food into their mouths?

How does being hungry force food into your mouth? Nothing can force food into anyone's mouth; hence a person's state of mind can directly determine their behaviour. Scientific fact. It'll be a shame if you can't grasp that.

quote:

Read what I've posted, and not what you think I've posted. (for the 10th or 11th time now)

For the 10th or 11th time now, I did read what you posted. Here it is:

quote:

If the health issues were due to them being overweight at some point in their life then they need to be held accountable for it.

So now that I've read what you actually posted, please explain to me how my interpretation (i.e. if they can't afford to be held accountable, the only thing left for them is death) isn't perfectly accurate? You can't. Didn't think so.

Just found this report... you might find it enlightening...

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200304/cmselect/cmhealth/23/23.pdf

quote:

Hence - if something affects your brain/ mental state it will affect your behaviour.

Still doesn't directly cause obesity.
Obesity is a choice in 100% of cases.

quote:

Hence it stands to reason that if you're happy to fund a cause that the majority benefit from but the minority take advantage of, then you should be happy to fund free healthcare for all even though a minority are "lazy and unwilling" right? That's precisely where you contradict yourself.

I've exlained it twice now. If you can't separate the difference between PROVEN uselessnes, and UNPROVEN uselessness I'm powerless to drive the point home.

If you could (using your crystal ball) point out the kids in today's school which will end up being a burden to society then we can target them now to reduce the chance of them being a burden in the future.

But you can't.

However, I CAN point out the people who are currently being a burden to society, and remove their benefits.

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Nothing can force food into anyone's mouth

Exactly, so finally you conceed that obesity is a choice in 100% of cases.

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the only thing left for them is death)

No, and I covered this several times.

Why when asked to go back and reread what I posted did you totally miss the point I was referring to ?

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You can't. Didn't think so.

no, you re just repeatedly missing my point.

MALKIE SAYS: Obesity is a choice in 100% of cases.

MALKIE SAYS: Obesity is a choice in 100% of cases.

Another inane statement with no evidence to back it up.

I don't BELIEVEit! (Richard Wilson voice... )

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Still doesn't directly cause obesity.
Obesity is a choice in 100% of cases

Yes... if you insist... and how exactly do we make choices?
Oh yes, we have to use our brains, our mental ability...
Hence if we are affected by physical, mental, or emotional conditions that affect our brain and mental state our choices.. and importantly our ability to make the right choices.... is severely impaired.

quote:

Originally posted by welfarist:

quote:

Still doesn't directly cause obesity.
Obesity is a choice in 100% of cases

Yes... if you insist... and how exactly do we make choices?
Oh yes, we have to use our brains, our mental ability...
Hence if we are affected by physical, mental, or emotional conditions that affect our brain and mental state our choices.. and importantly our ability to make the right choices.... is severely impaired.

Here's an interesting paper about the correlation between depression and obesity...

http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?script=sci_arttext&pid=S1516-44462003000400002

quote:

Originally posted by welfarist:

quote:

Still doesn't directly cause obesity.
Obesity is a choice in 100% of cases

Yes... if you insist... and how exactly do we make choices?
Oh yes, we have to use our brains, our mental ability...
Hence if we are affected by physical, mental, or emotional conditions that affect our brain and mental state our choices.. and importantly our ability to make the right choices.... is severely impaired.

If you disagree, please give an example of how obesity isn't a choice.

The bottomline is that obesity is caused by putting food into your mouth, hence is 100% a choice in all cases.

Welfarist, had a very quick look at the report you recommended, and I think a lot of what is being advocated is very sensible indeed, and for the population as a whole, not just people who are overweight. Nutritional information, higher cost unhealthy foods, removal of sweets from checkouts, promotion of healthy and unprocessed foods, modernised version of PE activities for school children, and encouragement of other activities such as walking, cycling, etc. These things should be in place for anyone who wishes to improve their general health, never mind weight problems...

The bottomline is that obesity is caused by putting food into your mouth...

so is foodpoisoning!

"energy expenditure has dropped considerably, environmental factors
have combined to make it increasingly easy for people to consume more calories than they
need. Energy-dense foods, which are highly calorific without being correspondingly filling,
are becoming increasingly available. And while our evidence suggested that people are,
generally speaking, aware of what constitutes a healthy diet, there are multiple barriers to
their putting this into practice. In the absence of practical cookery lessons, children and
young people are growing up without the skills to prepare healthy meals (Malkie would make sure these kids are culled from society. That's a shame.), compounding
reliance on convenience foods, which are often high in energy density; healthy-eating
messages are drowned out by the large proportion of advertising given over to highly
energy-dense foods; other types of food promotion, as well as pricing also make buying
unhealthy food more attractive and economical than healthy alternatives; and food
labelling, a key tool to help consumers choose healthy foods, is frequently either confusing
or absent.[/QUOTE] So here is a whole population for which "loosing weight" is easier said than done. You choose not to acknowledge these people (and would rather they were 'cleansed' from view) when discussing this issue. This makes your stance and opinion utterly useless in the real world.

quote:

I covered this several times.

Why when asked to go back and reread what I posted did you totally miss the point I was referring to ?

I did read what you posted. Here it is:

quote:

If the health issues were due to them being overweight at some point in their life (e.g during childhood) then they need to be held accountable for it.

So now that I've read what you actually posted, please explain to me how my interpretation (i.e. if they gained weight during childhood and can't afford to be held accountable in adulthood, the only thing left for them is death) isn't perfectly accurate? You still can't. Didn't think so. Your "go back and read what I've posted" retort is getting embarrassing. Especially since I've cited what you posted.

Here's a question, under your regime, would information about healthy diets and healthy lifestyle be a part of the process, or would it simply be "punishment"? If so, how would you deal with the people who choose to loose weight in drastic, life threatning ways?

Ach! lets try this again.

quote:

energy expenditure has dropped considerably, environmental factors
have combined to make it increasingly easy for people to consume more calories than they
need. Energy-dense foods, which are highly calorific without being correspondingly filling,
are becoming increasingly available. And while our evidence suggested that people are,
generally speaking, aware of what constitutes a healthy diet, there are multiple barriers to
their putting this into practice. In the absence of practical cookery lessons, children and
young people are growing up without the skills to prepare healthy meals (Malkie would make sure these kids are culled from society. That's a shame.), compounding
reliance on convenience foods, which are often high in energy density; healthy-eating
messages are drowned out by the large proportion of advertising given over to highly
energy-dense foods; other types of food promotion, as well as pricing also make buying
unhealthy food more attractive and economical than healthy alternatives; and food
labelling, a key tool to help consumers choose healthy foods, is frequently either confusing
or absent.

So here is a whole population for which "loosing weight" is easier said than done. You choose not to acknowledge these people (and would rather they were 'cleansed' from view) when discussing this issue. This makes your stance and opinion utterly useless in the real world.

quote:

Why when asked to go back and reread what I posted did you totally miss the point I was referring to?

How exactly did I miss the point?
I did read what you posted. Here it is:

quote:

If the health issues were due to them being overweight at some point in their life(e.g during childhood) then they need to be held accountable for it.

So now that I've read what you actually posted, please explain to me how my interpretation (i.e. if they gained weight during childhood and can't afford to be held accountable in adulthood, the only thing left for them is death) isn't perfectly accurate? You still can't. Or you won't; knowing that your solution is not only dumb but so unworkable its a joke! Your "go back and read what I've posted" retort is getting embarrassing. Especially since I've cited what you posted.

Here's a question, under your regime, would information about healthy diets and healthy lifestyle be a part of the process, or would it simply be "punishment"? If so, how would you deal with the people who choose to loose weight in drastic, life threatning ways?

Malkie - the choices we make depend upon a number of factors - logic is only one of them.

e.g. Mr A. knows logically that he has consumed enough calories and fat for the day. That is his conscious thought. He knows he needs to keep to this in order to lose weight and improve his health - therefore he really wants to make the right choice.
However, he may have a large appetite - hence he feels hungry in his stomach, and his brain tells him "need food now". He may have cravings for a certain food group, e.g. sugar, which in turn send certain messaged to his brain, which then tells Mr A. "I REALLY need to eat sugar". Or maybe Mr A. is severely depressed. Because of this condition he suffers feelings of helplessness etc, so his brain constantly tells him "why bother to diet? what's the point? You'll only fail... you a failure....etc etc." All these factors and many more come into play and each one will make decision making much harder, you have to go against everything your body and sub-conscious mind are telling you.

Look at it another way...

Walking to the shops requires the use of your feet. If your feet are not functioning at optimum capacity - e.g. you have broken bones, heavy blisters or whatever - then your ability to walk is impaired.

Making choices requires the use of brain and mental state. If these are not working to optimum capacity - e.g. due to physical or psychological conditions - then your ability to make choices is impaired.

Oh, and back to the education thing.... even if you are capable of making the right choices you still need a fairly good knowledge of nutrition, fat and calorie content of foods etc. If you do not have the knowledge, you can not make accurate choices.

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(Malkie would make sure these kids are culled from society. That's a shame.)......You choose not to acknowledge these people (and would rather they were 'cleansed' from view)

Sorry, that's the final straw. I've repeatedly said that isn't the case, and repeatedly referred to you my posts which cover exactly what I'd like to see happen. I'm no longer going to respond to this comment.

quote:

Your "go back and read what I've posted" retort is getting embarrassing. Especially since I've cited what you posted

You aren't quoting what I am referring to.

quote:

've repeatedly said that isn't the case, and repeatedly referred to you my posts which cover exactly what I'd like to see happen.

please explain to me how my interpretation (i.e. if they gained weight during childhood and can't afford to be held accountable in adulthood, the only thing left for them is death) isn't perfectly accurate? You still can't. Or you won't; knowing that your solution is not only dumb but so unworkable its a joke!

Had a look at different people when I was at our local shopping centre yesterday. Just about everyone of a mature age seemed to be carrying some extra body weight, except for a couple of really old OAPs, and a nervous looking lady who looked like she would have snapped your head off soon as look at you! Most of the lean people seemed to be of an age at which they were still maturing, and it was reasonably easy to recognise the young people who were liable to be prone to weight gain, as they got older, by their body shape. Walking home, I didn't see anyone pounding the streets as I was, plenty of cars though, and only a couple of cyclists, both of which looked like they were pretty serious...

quote:

please explain to me how my interpretation (i.e. if they gained weight during childhood and can't afford to be held accountable in adulthood, the only thing left for them is death) isn't perfectly accurate? You still can't. Or you won't; knowing that your solution is not only dumb but so unworkable its a joke!

Like I've stated on several occasions (and this genuinely is the last time) - go back and read what I've posted on the matter. Not the irrelevant part you continually repost, but the actual part which deals with the counter to your arguement.

If you have anything new to post I'll be happy to rely, otherwise I won't.

You can throw a strop all you want but you have posted NoTHING to counter my argument. Directing me to an imaginary post is a somewhat pathetic way to avoid admitting you've lost an argument due to your primary school approach to a complex issue.

At this rate, Malkie will have taken the huff with so many people, he'll have hardly any to reply to!