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quote: the actual part which deals with the counter to your arguement.
We both know this "part" doesn't exist now does it? Quite sad really. quote: If you have anything new to post I'll be happy to rely, otherwise I won't.
Under your regime, would information about healthy diets and healthy lifestyle be a part of the process, or would it simply be "punishment"? If so, how would you deal with the people who choose to loose weight in drastic, life threatning ways? So here is a whole population for which "loosing weight" is easier said than done. You choose not to acknowledge these people or even accept the complexity of societal influence on human biology claiming that all overweight people are lazy and unwilling. This suggests that you're completely removed from the real world and makes your stance and opinion on this issue utterly useless. |
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quote: We both know this "part" doesn't exist now does it? Quite sad really.
You just don't like what is a perfectly acceptable solution. quote: Under your regime, would information about healthy diets and healthy lifestyle be a part of the process, or would it simply be "punishment"?
education? ok, I'll put up large bill boards that say "eat less crap" - good enough ? quote: If so, how would you deal with the people who choose to loose weight in drastic, life threatning ways?
sorry, but has anyone ever died from losing a healthy amount of excess weight? quote:
So here is a whole population for which "loosing weight" is easier said than done. You choose not to acknowledge these people or even accept the complexity of societal influence on human biology claiming that all overweight people are lazy and unwilling.
Easier said than done ? There's nothing stopping anyone losing weight. If they aren't lazy or unwilling then why are they still over weight? ========================================= I'm still waiting for your variables which can't be over come with a little effort. You babbles on about "social medicine", but when pushed for actual reasons you can't provide any. |
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MALKIE: sorry, but has anyone ever died from losing a healthy amount of excess weight?Yes, Malkie, there have. People who have been intimidated into losing weight quickly because people like you denigrate and are nasty about their weight problems can and have died from weight reducing operations. In fact, I was reading about a person just last week, whose partner was happy with the overweight person she was, but she was so depressed with the fact that she wasn't a normal weight that she went in for a weight reduction operation, and died from complications. This apparently has happened to several patients, and would I imagine fit in with AD's description of "people who choose to loose weight in drastic, life threatning ways"  |
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MALKIE: education? ok, I'll put up large bill boards that say "eat less crap" - good enough ? I think you'll find Malkie that overweight people are often more aware of the benefits of healthy eating than some "normal" weight people who eat all sorts of rubbish and manage to get off with it, and pontificate to others about what they should do.  |
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quote: You just don't like what is a perfectly acceptable solution.
And what exactly is this solution? "They should be held accountable"; and what if they can't afford it? "Go back and read what I posted". You haven't posted anything. quote: I'll put up large bill boards that say "eat less crap"
Something else to add to your list of "dumb things to say" since people who are genetically predisposed to store fat rather than efficiently break it down are not necessarily eating crap. quote: I'm still waiting for your variables which can't be over come with a little effort.
Different people have different definitions of "a little effort" so the fact that you include that condition to your questions leaves you room to claim that any variable I provide you with can be overcome with a little effort in your opinion. Quite a clever but nevertheless cheap debating tactic. Either way here are some of the variables that influence eating habits in society. quote: "In the absence of practical cookery lessons, children and young people are growing up without the skills to prepare healthy meals, compounding reliance on convenience foods, which are often high in energy density; healthy-eating messages are drowned out by the large proportion of advertising given over to highly energy-dense foods; other types of food promotion, as well as pricing also make buying unhealthy food more attractive and economical than healthy alternatives; and food labelling, a key tool to help consumers choose healthy foods, is frequently either confusing or absent."
Is there anything in that paragraph you don't agree with? |
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MALKIE: sorry, but has anyone ever died from losing a healthy amount of excess weight?
Have you not heard of anorexics, Malkie. These people start off losing a healthy amount of excess weight, and then just carry on doing it because they still see themselves as fat and not fitting in with the pressure today of being slim and svelte. Any young girl (or boy nowadays too) worried out their body shape, and reading the intolerant, one-sided and demeaning messages you are sending out about overweight people and, perhaps carrying a little puppy fat, could start off on this track today, a journey which destroys whole families and can end in a very unpleasant death.
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"Surely, anorexia can be overcome with a 'little effort'. So can any other eating disorder. These people are just lazy and unwilling and should be punished. A hundred years ago, there was no such thing as depression; people just got on with it..." said one bitter, deluded scientist whose opinions and views hold no basis or relevance to society.
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MALKIE SENTIMENT RE ANOREXIA:
"Surely, anorexia can be overcome with a 'little effort'. So can any other eating disorder.
I totally agree.
The above "I totally agree" is a Malkie reply to something that he has totally changed the sense of by taking out of context. To many people who have watched their children die, trying to fight this horrific condition, these simple words mock the trauma and grief that they have suffered. Anorexia is a dreadful condition afflicting many young people today, and Malkie's glib statement appears to show that he has absolutely no idea of the distress and anguish it causes. Before putting forth statements that are liable to cause even more distress to bereaved parents of anorexic children, perhaps Malkie should read up on the disease first. If he has, and still considers this a true comment, he must be one of the most emotionally cold people around today.
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The fact that anorexia, bulimia and other eating disorders have been classed as serious illnesses along the lines of clinical depression (and are arguably more life threatening) suggests that it takes more than 'a little effort' to overcome them. Hence you're wrong on that one. Not to mention your debating skills have hit an impressive new low. quote: I totally agree (that anorexia can be overcome with a little effort)
That's just your opinion and adds nothing to the debate without any evidence to show that anorexia can easily be overcome. So where's your evidence that anorexia can be overcome with "a little effort"? |
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And here's the lifestory, Malkie, of a woman who has suffered anorexia all her life, and was terminally ill when she wrote this: http://www.dawnmist.demon.co.uk/edshed/ed01.htmRead it carefully, and then reread your sentiment that anorexia can be overcome with "a little effort". Do you still agree? By the unthinking and demeaning statements you are making on this website about people who are finding difficulty in controlling their weight, and by your total lack of sympathy or understanding of their plight, you are contributing in your own little way to this disease. 10% of anorexia victims die, Malkie. Perhaps you should consider this steep mortality rate, before you make an outrageous statement to try to score a few cheap points. |
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quote: A qualitative investigation into the levers and barriers to weight loss in children: the opinions of obese children.
Murtagh J, Dixey R, Rudolf MC.
University of Leeds, United Kingdom.
The alarming increase in the worldwide prevalence of childhood obesity is now recognised as a major public health concern. Failure to isolate and understand the external and internal factors contributing to successful weight loss may well be contributing to the ineffectiveness of current treatment interventions. This study uses qualitative techniques to identify physical and psychological levers and barriers to weight loss experienced by obese children. METHODS: Twenty participants were randomly selected from a population of clinically obese children (7-15 years old) attending a weight-loss clinic for longer than three months. The children expressed their opinions in a series of interviews and focus group sessions. Data was recorded, semi-transcribed and analysed using the thematic framework analysis technique and behavioural change models. RESULTS: Children described the humiliation of social torment and exclusion as the main reasons for wanting to lose weight although behavioural change initiation required the active intervention of a role model. The continuation of action was deemed improbable without continual emotional support offered at an individual level. Making behavioural sacrifices, delayed parental recognition and previous negative experiences of weight-loss attempts were recognised as barriers to action. Participants identified short-comings in their own physical abilities, the extended time period required to lose weight and external restrictions beyond their control as barriers to maintaining behavioural change. DISCUSSION: This study identifies important levers and barriers experienced by obese children in their attempt to lose weight. Addressing these levers and barriers whilst acknowledging the complex interplay of social and emotional factors unique to the individual, may well promote successful weight control.
The authors conclude that the complex and social and emotional factors need to be taken into account for succesful weight control in children. Not "a little effort". quote: Psychological interventions for overweight or obesity.
Shaw K, O'Rourke P, Del Mar C, Kenardy J.
Public and Environmental Health Unit, Department of Health and Human Services, Public Health Unit, 3 / 90 Davey Street, Hobart, Tasmania, Australia, 7000. kelly.shaw@dhhs.tas.gov.au
BACKGROUND: Overweight and obesity are global health problems which are increasing throughout the industrialised world. If left unchecked, they will continue to contribute to the ever increasing noncommunicable disease burden. OBJECTIVES: To assess the effects of psychological interventions for overweight or obesity as a means of achieving sustained weight loss. SEARCH STRATEGY: Studies were obtained from searches of multiple electronic bibliographic databases. The date of the latest search was June 2003. SELECTION CRITERIA: Trials were included if the fulfilled the following criteria: 1) they were randomised controlled clinical trials of a psychological intervention versus a comparison intervention, 2) one of the outcome measures of the study was weight change measured by any method, 3) participants were followed for at least three months, 4) the study participants were adults (18 years or older) who were overweight or obese (BMI > 25 kg/m(2)) at baseline. DATA COLLECTION AND ANALYSIS: Two people independently applied the inclusion criteria to the studies identified and assessed study quality. Disagreement was resolved by discussion or by intervention of a third party. Meta-analyses were performed using a fixed effect model. MAIN RESULTS: A total of 36 studies met the inclusion criteria and were included in the review. Overall, 3495 participants were evaluated. The majority of studies assessed behavioural and cognitive-behavioural weight reduction strategies. Cognitive therapy, psychotherapy, relaxation therapy and hypnotherapy were assessed in a small number of studies. Behaviour therapy was found to result in significantly greater weight reductions than placebo when assessed as a stand-alone weight loss strategy (WMD -2.5 kg; 95% CI -1.7 to -3.3). When behaviour therapy was combined with a diet / exercise approach and compared with diet / exercise alone, the combined intervention resulted in a greater weight reduction. Studies were heterogeneous however the majority of studies favoured combining behaviour therapy with dietary and exercise interventions to improve weight loss. Increasing the intensity of the behavioural intervention significantly increased the weight reduction (WMD -2.3 kg; 95% CI -1.4 to - 3.3). Cognitive-behaviour therapy, when combined with a diet / exercise intervention, was found to increase weight loss compared with diet / exercise alone (WMD -4.9 kg; 95% CI -7.3 to - 2.4). No data on mortality, morbidity or quality of life were found. AUTHORS' CONCLUSIONS: People who are overweight or obese benefit from psychological interventions, particularly behavioural and cognitive-behavioural strategies, to enhance weight reduction. They are predominantly useful when combined with dietary and exercise strategies. The bulk of the evidence supports the use of behavioural and cognitive-behavioural strategies. Other psychological interventions are less rigorously evaluated for their efficacy as weight loss treatments.
The array and combination of interventions required to acheive significant weight loss suggests that weight loss sometimes requires more than "a little effort". There. Now where's your evidence to the contrary? |
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MALKIES ATTITUDE TOWARDS CONCENTRATION CAMP VICTIMS - OFFHAND AND JOKING
ever see a fat person in a nazi concentration camp?
Nope.
Did they have personal trainers and interventions in the camps?
Nope.
Conclusion - anyone can lose weight with a little effort.
Leaving aside the fact that you are not only now being offensive to victims of anorexia and flippant about the atrocities suffered by concentration camp victims, I think you have totally undermined your case by this offensive remark. The surviving victims of this inhuman treatment of human by human would be liable to be those whose bodyweight allowed them to live long enough to be freed from that hell on earth...
Does it give you pleasure, Malkie, to be so cruel and nasty in your comments about people who have suffered and died either through illness or being exterminated?
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MALKIE'S COMMENTS ABOUT SUFFERS FROM ANOREXIA:
what's stopping them putting some food into their mouths? Absolutely nothing.
You evidently didn't read the link I gave you about the terminally ill woman suffering from anorexia, or you wouldn't have made such a stupid statement. Here's an excerpt, which very poignantly points out the flaw in your argument:
NATALIE'S STORY:
At the time of writing I am still on a synthetic liquid diet (at a wholly inadequate level of nutritional intake, and rapidly starving) and fifty-odd doses of various medications a day. My little remaining digestive function is now rapidly failing, and I expect shortly to be transferred onto intravenous nutrition to extend my life a little further. The doctors tell me I am expected to live another six to nine months at best.
For several years now I have had colonic atony. This means that I don't pass solids at all without daily doses of rectally-administered stimulant laxatives and can easily suffer from impaction, which can be dangerous. This is totally dignity-destroying. It's a consequence of laxative abuse and starvation combined.
I have extensive muscle wasting, so I am extremely weak. My heart is equally deteriorated, and will undoubtedly just quit before long; that will be the most likely final cause of death. My liver, kidneys and many other organs are irreversibly damaged: yet another source of constant pain, a need for numerous medications and frequent blood tests and hospital visits. I have also suffered extensive brain damage: I am mentally lucid for only a few hours a day, have lost much of my intelligence, and my ability to form new short or long-term memories is destroyed -- I can remember my medical training from 15 years ago without trouble, but I cannot remember what I was doing five minutes ago, or a conversation I had yesterday. I am immunocompromised and am forever going to the doctor with some infection or another, for yet another course of antibiotics.
On a more superficial level, my physical appearance is pretty awful. Much of my hair has fallen out, I am covered in lanugo, bones stick out everywhere and I am covered with pressure sores as a result of protruding bones. I cannot buy clothes to fit me, because no-one makes clothes for people with the measurements of a nine-year-old but a height of almost 5'10".
In all, I have lost almost everything I had in life. My quality of life is now extremely poor, and I am dying. All for what? Being thin? What can possibly be so great about being thin to make it worth all that?
I have written my story down here in the hope that other people, perhaps newly falling into an eating disorder, will read it and realise what they are risking. It is my greatest hope in life that by being honest and open about my own wasted life, I may be able to save someone else from going the way that I have gone.
(Hopefully, any potential anorexic victim who has happened upon this website will learn from Natalie's sad and futile fight against anorexia, and take heed of her plea, instead of taking on board all the claptrap you are talking...)
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*Stands up and claps Thewitchisback*
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quote: Originally posted by malkie: quote: Tax the fat? - money wasted on healthcare
Tax the anorexic/bulimic? - money wasted on psychological treatment
Tax the mentally and physically disabled? - they shouldn't have been born..........
Tax the ugly - why should we look at them?
I'd tax the fat and the underweight if they burden society. Sorry, Malkie. I`ve been overweight for years, and don`t have a medical condition caused by my weight. However, I DO have a medical condition, the treatment for which was years on a high dosage of steroids, which caused my weight to increase quite significantly. So am I to be punished for accepting medical treatment that prevented my condition from being potentially fatal?Why would anyone want to tax the ugly? Are they are burden to society ? Absolutely not. So what about those who have cosmetic surgery on the NHS because their bodily imperfections make them think they are incapable of facing a normal life?
What makes them think they are incapable of facing a normal life? People like yourself who judge others on their physical attributes.What has ethnic cleansing got to do with taxing people who are the cause of their own health problems? Because it is NOT too far of a leap to start taxing parents who deliberatly bring into the world babies who are mentally and physically disabled who will alway be dependent upon medical care for their survival and welfare.quote: some of the people on here who perceive that if you are overweight/obese you will be totally unable to provide an impartial opinion, therefore presuming some lack of intelligence.
who said that ? You for one, are saying just that.  "Tax the fat because they are not intelligent enough to lose weight. quote: There are thousands of people fraudulently claiming benefits in this country causing about a £2 billion deficit every year.
I'd ban anyone doing that from claiming benefits ever again. Now that IS the first thing you`ve said that I actually agree with.
Providing of course that deliberate fraud was intended. And not because the over payments in benifits was due to a c*ck up by the benifits offices concerned.Furthermore I'd have every single person on benefits doing community service every single week. If they don't then they don't get benefits. Some people on benifits are already working a full time job, as well as raising children. When do you suggest they try and fit in this community work? And who then pays for the childcare while the parent is doing this community work? quote: Have you noticed the strength of the pound recently? There is no reason for a country with an economy as strong as ours to have to resort to this.
if you haven't noticed our healthcare system is in tatters - it spends far too much on the healthcare of those who have ended up needing care because of their own choices. Even more money is wasted through the exhorbitant wages of beaurocrats and pen pushers. And in installing new technology that is`nt capable of actually doing the job it was installed to do.quote: The way forward is promoting healthy eating at school, in the workplace,and through national long-term campaigns.
that's been on going for 20 years without making any difference. Start taxing those who are lazy and unwilling and hence punish the people who are the cause of the problems. You'll soon see a quick turn around.
You will indeed. Lots of unessential Health care personnel will be out of work. Whilst the money saved will go back to benifitting the sick.
********************************
John Smith: So what am I then? Nothing. I`m just a story.
Doctor: You`re an echo. That`s all. A TimeLord is so much more. A sum of knowledge; a code. A shared history. A shared suffering. Only it`s gone now, all of it. Gone forever.
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It's like a bit of boilerplate text. I am sure I have read it in different layouts. It could just as easily say, anorexics are "lazy and unwilling". Depression can be overcome with a "little effort". Just pick your disease or challenge and add a simple remedy. It's just a collection of words that get mixed around a bit, and spewed out in various mean little posts. 