'Hypnosurgery Live' is on Mon 10 April 9pm-11pm. Presented by Sarah Smith, this two hour special asks whether hypnosis should be more widely available to people unsuited to, too weak for, or afraid of conventional anaesthetics. The programme will include discussion and debate as well as live and archive examples of the efficacy of hypnosis in a surgical context, culminating in a live hernia operation being performed under hypnosis with no anaesthetic at all.
Hypnosurgery Live aims to stimulate public and professional debate about the potential benefits of this use of hypnosis.
Should the technique be more widely available in the NHS? Could it potentially save lives, offer wider patient choice and speed the recovery process?
What are your thoughts? I'm particularly interested to know if you personally would consider an op (hernia or other) under hypnosis.
On Thursday 09 September 2004 driving between my home in Bracknell and Maidenhead I was unfortunate to arrive some 30 seconds after a high speed two car collision one of the two drivers was a young girl of about 24 who had a severe slicing wound from her right temple going through to some two inches behind the right ear to the extent it was showing a large area of her skull. Her left foot had been severed above the ball of the lower shin and was held in place only by the tendons at the heel she had also sustained other less serious injuries she was in tremendous pain and starting to panic. Assured by other people that emergency services were on the way I got the girl to look at me I told her that I was a clinical hypnotherapist and that if she wanted me to I could help her. Her immediate answer was yes with some colourful language for punctuation. I first got her to close her eyes on a five count by staring into mine and just allow them to become heavy this took three attempts before I had obtained eye closure I then rapidly got eye lock by forcing the locking suggestion on her that if her eyes couldn’t open the pain and discomfort would start to subside I then got her to begin counting 5,4,3,2,1, at my speed with me after several times she had slowed down sufficiently for me to offer suggestion that numbers disappear, she became very suggestible and within about three to four minutes she was calm responsive and in no pain but a little discomfort she was responsive and we began communicating by my suggestion and her hand squeezing mine in response 40 minutes later the first ambulance arrives the paramedics were appraising the situation one of the police officers in attendance told the paramedic that I was doing something they had never seen before she told the medic what and who was, the medic was courteous enough to ask me permission to check her vital signs I told the victim that the paramedic was going to check her out and that if she was happy to give a thumbs up which she did I gave her a 123 eyes open so they could check for concussion and compounded the relaxation with a 123 eyes closed 1t was nearly an hour before chemical pain control could be given by the doctor in attendance but the victim had due to the relaxation and suggestion I had given her controlled her vital signs limited blood loss and was in a calm and relaxed state when she was flown away in the air ambulance very few hypnotists are given the opportunity to push their skills to the limit under such extreme conditions the latest news is the surgeons managed to save the foot and she is expected to make a full recovery.
Marc Bishop clinical hypnotherapist Mind wide open
Originally posted by malkie: complete and utter mumbo-jumbo nonsense
well who ever you are malkie if you feel that you would like to expierience i will be hapy to offer the expierience
you may be interested to know that hypnotic analgesia is non toxic has no side effects and is free theses three factors are what precludes its acceptance by the medical proffession over to you malkie
I very much doubt Malkie would be interested. Unless, of course, animals have been tortured and killed by being forced to undergo hypnotic analgesia before it was tried in humans...
I found your post fascinating, thetrancestate. I had heard of someone who underwent heart bypass surgery under hypnosis a few years ago, but had given it little thought until reading what you said above. I'll definitely be watching the programme on Monday. Could you provide a link for further information? I'd be really interested to learn more about this.
for those who understand no explination is necesary for those who won't no explination will suffice my web site is www.mindwideopen.co.uk before the medical proffession became slaves to the pharmacutical industry hypnosis in many guises was used on a regular basis unfortunatly we have become so sophisticated in our thinking we have forgotten to use our minds. consider this a doctor only has a phd in general medicine but feels that he should call himself a doctor would you go to a doctor of literature to have a broken arm fixed a dentist has a phd but does not call himself a doctor he is a dentist doctors are general practitionesrs and generaly they practice on us
Indeed they do. Thanks for posting the link, actually I found your website last night and had a bit of a look around - very interesting. I said I'd watch the tv programme on Monday but then realised I don't have More4, so am hoping it will be repeated on Channel 4 at some point. Either way, I'll certainly look into this some more. Thanks again.
COME ON MALKIE With your stunning use of the English language and seeing as how you have an opinion on just about everything I was expecting some other sparkling response to your comment on my post regarding your original comment “utter mumbo jumbo nonsense” it is refreshing that there are people like you who do so much to promote alternative thinking and then fail to follow up what they start the challenge was laid and yet you have been found wanting com on Malkie I am sure with a little effort and a thesaurus you could find some wordy response this is the trance state and the many clients I have who have been helped with hypnosis waiting
Sorry for the delay in replying, but I don't live online - give people more than a few days to reply - eh?
I'm a little concerned over your rather poor grasp of the English language, but that point is totally irrelevant.
So, why is this all mumbo-jumbo ? Simple, there is absolutely no valid evidence to support this nonsense.
It is impossible to generate a valid trial of any technique, or be able to separate a 'real' effect from a placebo effect.
Simply put, given the well documented placebo effects of just speaking to an "expert", it is impossible to prove that any useful hypnosis has occured.
Say for example you've been suffering from pain for years, and been on different medications which haven't worked. Then you get referred to a specialist who says he has a new breakthrough treatment that works in 100% of cases. He actually gives you a boiled sweet.......then, in about 50% of cases the patient will report a massive reduction in pain symptoms.
Hence, it is absolutely impossible for you to prove that your techniques are in any way effective, because you don't have a control to compare it to.
Snowflakefairy - thanks for generalising me. Really shows your true colours, and complete lack of character. Shameful really.
Ok Malkie we have proved that we can insult each other if we try really hard
Your first point that there is no valid evidence what evidence do you require? And what does it need to achieve to be valid? How long does the analgesic effect need to be in order that it is a valid method of pain relief an 8 stone woman suffering menstrual cramps may take several aspirin a day to try and relieve her symptoms where as a 20 stone rugby player takes two in the morning for tooth ache and they will last all day the power of that persons mind also plays a big part, the rugby player accepts that two aspirin is sufficient and gets on with his day the lady will tell every one she meets that she is in such tremendous pain that she has taken so many pain killers because she want the pain to stay so haw can you validate any trial that has a psychological reason /effect in creating supporting symptoms ( ladies this is for example only and any apologies needed are offered un reservedly)
Does not the change in a person’s well being whether permanent or temporary offer that evidence? Consider this two people with a similar set of symptoms. For example rheumatics of the knee both of similar age and background. I as a hypnotherapist treat one the local GP the other. I teach my client to interpret the discomfort differently or to control his own experience to such an extent that the pain and discomfort goes away he is aware that he has a physical condition he is doing what he can to alleviate the problem himself he is in control which in itself is a very powerful motivator for success. By handing over control to the GP who listens for a few minutes analyses the symptoms then prescribes a drug which can have the same effect as my therapy short or long term. The patient becomes drug dependant not self dependant
What of the side effects and toxicity of that drug over a longer period? Yes and given the well documented effects of placebo is that the medical profession using hypnosis AKA suggestion “this pill will make you better”
If you need control I will offer you this if you were to break both index fingers which one would hurt the most left or right. My question would be if I could ease your discomfort now immediately which finger would you leave to wait for pharmaceutical intervention because malkie I can be body part specific or should I say I can teach you to be
It's a real shame that you don't understand why your methods cannot be proven, which makes this entire debate utterly pointless.
Your first point that there is no valid evidence what evidence do you require?
What's really needed is a double-blind, placebo controlled trial, however due to the nature of your techniques there cannot be a genuine control group.
All you are really left with is the power of suggestion, which works rather well on the weak minded, but doesn't actually translate to any therapeutic benefit.
Not everyone responds to hypnosis, so how can you confirm that the patient isn't going to suddenly wake up when the surgeon is halfway through cutting open his chest?
I won't go as far as saying its mumbo jumbo but its certainly unreliable and somewhat useless since you can't be completely sure just how each person would respond to it. Some people with deep seated issues might end up having one hell of a nightmare!
Why is it a shame? I don’t have qualifications in physics but I have sufficient trust in the light switch to turn on the light and provide me with light I don’t need to know how the electricity is made Malkie it is a shame that you need to have so much evidence to prove things. Why do you need double blind placebo orientated control condition sterile environment documented fact to prove something works? My question now is why do you need to prove how something works. Why not just accept that something works. And if all you are left with is that it is the power of suggestion fine but if I suggest to you that a single suggestion could be delivered in such a powerful way it can change your life belief and that is all that is needed to turn a looser into a winner then great if a suggestion well delivered can resolve a physical or emotional difficulty then great but for you to suggest that only the weak minded can use hypnosis then I would suggest to you that they are the strongest of all because they want to change, know they can, they then ask for help and use that strength of mind to change. You yourself have been so well hypnotised against hypnosis that you accept it does not exist and so firm is your belief you won’t accept change how weak minded is that.
A-D thanks for your comment lets separate the two and avoid confusion therapy and pain relief. Therapy is too far reaching for this forum. Pain relief is different as you may have already gathered I am a staunch advocate of hypnotic pain relief. Lets go back to basics all hypnosis is self hypnosis, which is focused concentration and relaxation. For those who have experienced the trance state most will agree that they are aware of everything that is going on around them they just have no interest in what is going on I teach hypnotic analgesia for tattoo artists. These are the physical benefits of hypnotic analgesia when having a tattoo done under hypnosis no or very limited bleeding, non of the heat and soreness associated with the procedure, the skin does not wheal or become inflamed, the healing process is reduced by nearly half, the itching and irritation does not occur, the skin does not reject the pigment, no desire to pick or scratch at the healing wound, in fact a completely different experience so if someone is uncomfortable with chemical analgesia anaesthesia why not offer them an alternative for dental work or minor surgical procedures Esdaile and Braid are well documented surgeons from the 19th century who used hypnosis in thousands of surgical procedures. These were professional medical men who pushed the boundary of accepted thinking to improve the quality of care and well being for the ill sick and injured thereby removing the financial burden of pharmaceutical treatment. Now that is a radical idea …….re visited.
Well malkie The saving of a life is hot air? If the saving of a life is insufficient evidence that something happened beyond your imagination ask the mother, father, boyfriend, sister, brother, headmaster, work colleges et all of the girl on the side of the road (this is the most extreme example I can give you from personal experience of which there are many )when you have exhausted all the options and explored al the alternatives it is not for you to decide but only the person who will benefit who can make the choice to accept or not one day when you leave the ivory tower and meet the rest of the world will you understand that your opinion is not the most important thing but the effect it can have “You are today where your thoughts have brought you; you will be tomorrow where your thoughts will take you” “Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new." Albert Einstein
Proof as it may exist You can not have a double blind test to prove the efficacy of hypnosis for the following reasons 1 hypnosis and the altered state of consciousness is directed by the therapist and followed by the client 2 to prove that it doesn’t work all I have to do is nothing and let the person suffer 3 I could give suggestion that the client experience pain which would cause confusion to the client and they would always choose not because the subconscious wont allow the self to harm with no good reason (self harm has a deep rooted psychological base not part of this discussion ) 4 Or I could give an untrained person a script to read to a potential client with instruction to ignore the clients individual response
So now we are at odds if you can formulate testing criteria to prove the efficacy of hypnosis in pain control I will happily assist All I would ask is that you don’t dismiss what you don’t understand just because you don’t understand. Even I don’t understand how hypnosis works in its entirety because everyone is an individual but I do know that it does am I to deny someone in pain the benefit of relief because it can not be written on a piece of paper in some formulaic way for the hallowed halls of academia to hold and call their own. By the way what is your occupation ?????
yes yes, we've all seen Paul McKenna on TV. Interesting that he never shows the hypnosis techniques on TV, just incase he accidentally hypnotises someone at home.
You can not have a double blind test to prove the efficacy of hypnosis for the following reasons
Exactly.
Discuss over really.
All I would ask is that you don’t dismiss what you don’t understand just because you don’t understand.
That isn't the reason at all. I understand exactly what you are attempting to do, I'm just stating that it's impossible to prove it has any efficacy at all.
Well Malkie So you have decided the discussion is over WELL HOW WRONG CAN YOU BE Malkie you are the very reason the discussion continues as there is always an alternative I would suggest that you watch Derren Brown, he uses the most famous induction to trance technique known to professional hypnotherapists, but being so well versed in the technique you would know that already. Malkie putting all argument aside answer this one question. If you were in an accident which had caused you serious injury and I was the only form of help available to you, you were incapable of moving yourself and any assistance was hours away. If I were able to give you hypnotic comfort and pain relief would you decline because you didn’t understand how it worked and then wait for a doctor to arrive in several hours with his syringe and drugs but before he administered the drug you would want or demand some proof of its efficacy read the label then argue the pros and cons of the drug or would you just be grateful that someone cares enough to help you in your time of need Thanks for our support Dr Beard all gratefully received
Malkie I have been reading some of your other posts with interest some of which go a little beyond me and my area of interest. However, and this is not a bad thing you seem to be fixated with the idea that evidence and proof are key in all issues, and that the idea of testing for worth is more important than the worth of it working irrespective of testing or proof. If you had researched the subject fully you would be aware that tests for the hypnotic phenomenon and its many benefits to the therapeutic / recovery process have been performed and proven.
Think about cigarette smoking and stay with me on this if I had a small child with obesity would a doctor prescribe cheeseburgers twice a day of course not if I had a friend with an alcohol problem my GP would not recommend the local Tesco’s because vodka is cheaper there would he ? So if I want to stop smoking why does my GP offer nicotine replacement therapy which is the very drug I want to rid myself off. which only stays in the system for 4 days they are in fact encouraging my dependence on a therapy which doubles my success over willpower alone which according to the government figures is only 2% successful therefore drug therapy for smoking cessation is 98% unsuccessful drug therapy for smoking cessation currently ranging between 10 and 15 pounds per week. I wish I could sell crap to over a million people a week for £15 but I consider myself ethical!!!! Oh and I sleep well at night
