Can you then link to the post (or copy and paste) where someone gave a suitable alternative to testing the effects of a compound on heart rate, breathing etc please, because no-one has posted it in any of the threads I've read.

I think you are making things up now.

It doesnt change the arguement...... :|

It never will.

quote:

Originally posted by VegEd:
It doesnt change the arguement...... :|

It never will.

I totally agree, I'd just like to see more people just openly disagree with animal research, rather than claim there are alternatives which don't exist.

I absolutely agree that we have no right to be performing experiments on animals for our benefit. However, if you want medical research to continue animal usage is a must at the present time.

Well I cant say I disagree with that either, as you say I would just disagree we have the right do as we do, and I wish we would stop. There is no doubt we have gained from some animal research, as we have from some human research, and for sure we cant undo the knowledge cause we know find the method to be morally unnacceptable. We should though IMO use our best current methods from 'now' (then, as early as possible) to use/find alternative research methods. Who knows a new demand may create a new theory they hadnt thought of before, breakthroughs happen due to such things. Again who can argue what we have now is better than what we would have had without using animals, as impossible as saying we'd have the same things now as if we'd not used animals. But yes Im not a scientist, and I havent got all the answers for methods to replace current methods currently using animals, I dont even know if they can all be replaced, but as said before, none of us know if the things we try to cure are even curable, its a long project already, how many lifes does it cost before we deem current methods as innapropriate, or the disease impossible to cure. Should we even judge, certainly an easier decision to make if the research itself doesnt cost lifes as part of it. Again value calls, and yes its easy for most people to say humans are worth more than animals, and this race worth more than that, and my family more than his, but does it ever give us the right to sacrice some other group for our benefit alone?

Well i would disagree

There are alternatives available, and there are hundreds of web sites that state that. i asked you before if all animals were to die tomorrow does this mean that we cannot develop any new drugs? And if i remember correctly you said yes that would be the case. Again i have to disagree, what total nonsense there are always alternatives and if that was to happen they would start using them straight away. You seem to be so sure in everything you say and that no alternatives exist. Please tell me how you know this? how do you know that these alternatives don’t already exist? And they are there as a back up plan. lets say there's a virus going around and the only beings that can catch it are animals,
3 months later the virus has spread worldwide and all the animals are dead from it. do you really think the world is going to stop and no new drugs are going to be developed? of course not if that was to happen they would start using the alternatives they already have.

I dont think that one is for me.....

Not to mention the fact that some of these diseases could be the result of such research in the first place. Again who are the people we trust to do this in our name??

quote:

There are alternatives available, and there are hundreds of web sites that state that.

I'm not entirely sure the internet is the best source of information out there.

Again, I must stress, by law that if an alternative exists it must be used.

Hence, by that logic if an animal *is* being used it is because there simply is not an alternative. Again, I challenge you to show an alternative to a beating heart, breathing lungs, and an active brain which all interact.

And again I must question your flawed logic that it is possible for me to prove a negative (ie that there *isn't* an alternative).

Why is it flawed? back up what you are saying and show me there is no alternative and prove it. why pick parts of my questions and not the rest, please answer them all. post one site that is a very reliable source that states that there are no alternatives to animal testing. the internet is a very good place for information and there are sites that are a very reliable source.

Rob231 - You must prove that there IS an alternative because you keep saying there are.
And you only need to produce one alternative to prove it.

Malkie cannot prove his negative because in order to do so he would have to show every alternative that exists is unsuitable for replacing animal experiments.

The internet may hold lots of useful info. But there is also a hell of a lot of crap on it.

Also Rob I think if all the animals died tomorrow. Then we would die too. So no, we would not be able to produce new drugs.

why would we die too?

Rob321 - read RobDeManc's post - he explains things perfectly.

quote:

Rob231 - You must prove that there IS an alternative because you keep saying there are.
And you only need to produce one alternative to prove it.

Malkie cannot prove his negative because in order to do so he would have to show every alternative that exists is unsuitable for replacing animal experiments.

So, what is your evidence that there are a complete set of alternatives out there ?

Nothing I have ever seen completely replicates the beating heart, and it's innervation from the brain and other organs.

Rob321

We would die because we are all interdependant. We could not survive alone without any other animals.

quote:

Originally posted by RobDeManc:
Rob321

We would die because we are all interdependant. We could not survive alone without any other animals.

So as a vegan how do i rely on animals?

No logic there either, we had drugs before we had vivesection as far as I know, and likewise most drugs have a natural beginning, often based on information that we know about certain substances. Weve been using certain plants for years as natural remedies, but again they are probably deemed 'cookie' too unless mixed ina pot and forced on a non human model. :|

As said, you cant prove either way, we live in a society that deems it acceptable to use animals, and humans at certain periods, and we have now got products and knowledge from these areas, but that doesnt justify it morally, just scientifically, but that isnt enough. If we could solve all illness by cloning babies, I still think we will have to debate if we should.

I also think we are advanced enough to live without other animals, we dont need them for food, and we have, and could survive as a species without the reasearch that is a proven fact.

We cant fully know the consequences of wiping out all know food chains, or the animals effect on the environment, but we do know our over production of select species(primarily for food) has/is having a massive consequence on our environment. We as a planet are not surviving now, it just takes a long time for it to kick in. Again most sceinetists are now coming around to the idea of global warming, there are certainly enough signs that something is happening, be it environemntal effects or the next ice age. Again I would argue it would be wise to preumse our effect and do our best to counter, unless of course we are all still fatalists. There is still no doubt at the damage we are causing,its just the bigger picture that the science communit doesnt entirely agree with, but it is changing quickly.

Again if we need animals for our existence, then why do we not seem to care about their life outside of our own. We breed extenisvely our own resources, often detrimentantly to the environment, including the wildlife, even to the degree we allow hunting to attack predator species that attack our reources. So actually we overlook all for our food stuffs, and again this has always been the case since we raised our own. We get nearer and nearer to wiping out most natural (pre human, or industrilised humans at least) environments, to the degree that we face the reality of losing all wild animals. Every time they come into contact with humans, it usually ends badly. The only winners, if you can call them that, are us, pets and livestock. And personally life would be a lot grimmer without the wonderful world of animals in their natural environment. Maybe you just dont care enough, barring your own existence of course. I personally would prefer animals not to exist than live the life many do. As a human I would pick the same course.

Rob - I would not want to live without animals, would you?

All life on the planet is interdependant. We would not be here if it wasn't for all the animals and lfe forms that have existed before.

If all animals dissapeared then the rest of the natural world would change dramatically and probably to our detriment.

You may not use animal products but most of us do, and a lot rely on milk and eggs etc.

LMAO great arguement Rob. :|

If thats why animals exist, I hope they all die all the quicker, and you are starved of their products, Ive never heard such a weak trite argument in my life......

Yes without animals ever existing, we wouldve had a few issues, a million years of evolution would be missing, and we would have to adapt to using PCs with out tentacles (whatever). So yes Animals are clearly essential in the sense thats where we all come from, but that does not lead to the conclusion we now must need them cos they give us eggs to eat.

And just because YOUve become reliant on them, does not mean we need them for our health. Want and Need and a different things, and as mentioned in MANY posts before this one, also very relative, ie some people wish to kill, rape and torture others,you appreciate this is why we have laws. Some peoples needs are different from our own, and they see as THEIR right to do as they wish, regadless of yours.

quote:

LMAO great arguement Rob. :|

If thats why animals exist, I hope they all die all the quicker, and you are starved of their products, Ive never heard such a weak trite argument in my life......

Agree all the way