This thread should be called omnivores.

Malkie said, in reply to my statement that you can naturally maintain a healthy diet without meat: 'Not without supplimenting your diet with vitamins etc etc, which is entirely unnatural.'

I say: You don't need to supplement your diet if you have good quality food grown in good quality soil. The only thing vegans find hard to get in today's modern farmed food is B12. But, if we still led natural lives, we would get that from the bacteria on the plants and possibly in water. Yes, it would mean not washing plants so carefully but our ancestors managed quite well otherwise we wouldn't be here. Perhaps we have lost some of the ability to be immune to a bit of soil-borne infections. We are here because our ancestors survived that sort of diet. Those who succumed to infection died and didn't pass on their genes.

Meat eaters can't get their nourishment naturally. In many places the soil is so depleted of cobalt - or never had enough to start with - that cattle and sheep have to have cobalt supplements so that the bacteria in their guts can make B12. Therefore, humans who eat them are having supplements whether they want them or not. None of us who live outside the tropics could survive in the Winter without the intelligence to build houses, make clothes and light fires. And to import food from warmer climates. If it is unnatural to use our intelligence to make B12 tablets or to fortify food with it, it is unnatural to live in these latitudes and to farm animals.

If Malkie wants to lead a 'natural', omivore human life he should take himself off to the Kalahari desert to live as a hunter-gatherer. At the very least, he should not eat and drink oranges, bananas, tea, coffee, chocolate and dozens of other things that don't grow here. They are not natural to this country.
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Malkie thinks that because he can digest meat it must be natural for him to do so. Many people can smoke without becoming ill but their lungs weren't designed for smoke. Our distant ancestors were apes who had diets like gorrilas and chimpanzees. Chimpanzees eat meat but it forms a small part of their diets and has more to do with social interaction than nutrition. Gorrilas, in some places, are known to eat carrion. But, the natural diet of the great apes is vegan.
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And then Malkie says that some animals that were mentioned are herbivores that have digestive systems adapted for eating grass. But we don't eat grass stalks - just the seeds. We are not true herbivores in the sense that cattle are. We are mainly frugivores - eaters of seeds and fruit, with the addition of leaves and tubers.

quote:

The only thing vegans find hard to get in today's modern farmed food is B12

thank you for conceeding my point


Every vegetarian and vegan I know suppliment their diet with pills.

quote:

Originally posted by malkie:

quote:

The only thing vegans find hard to get in today's modern farmed food is B12

thank you for conceeding my point


Every vegetarian and vegan I know suppliment their diet with pills.

It's easy enough to get more than enough Vitamin B12 and other goodies through Marmite, which is something that lots of people eat anyway, even meat-eaters. For vegetarians, rather than vegans, it can also be obtained through eggs and dairy sources. You must know a lot of peelywally vegetarians and vegans, Malkie. All the ones I know are bursting with energy and vitality!

Malkie partially quoted me again: 'The only thing vegans find hard to get in today's modern farmed food is B12 ', and said: 'thank you for conceeding my point Every vegetarian and vegan I know suppliment their diet with pills.'

I say: No, I didn't concede any point. Many meat eaters need B12 injections because they can't absorb it from their food. And you most likely have cobalt supplements indirectly that have been given to the cattle and sheep that you eat.

I would advise anyone to take supplements because we live in a polluted world with food grown in depleted soils. Vegetables and fruits are often stored for weeks or months before being eaten, allowing many nutrients in them to be reduced.

quote:

I say: No, I didn't concede any point.

um, where do vegans and vegetarians get their B12 from then ? (straight answer please).

Futhermore, in your opinion do most vegans / vegetarians take further suppliments or not ?

quote:

Originally posted by malkie:

quote:

I say: No, I didn't concede any point.

um, where do vegans and vegetarians get their B12 from then ? (straight answer please).

Futhermore, in your opinion do most vegans / vegetarians take further suppliments or not ?

Yeast extract, which is often included in recipes for nut roasts, nut pudding, soups, etc. if vegans or vegetarians. And, if vegetarians, dairy and eggs. And, of course, like the rest of us, meat eaters, vegetarians or vegans, in breakfasts cereals.

I think Martin does make an important point. The soil nowadays is deficient in lots of minerals which affects cereals, vegetables, fruit and the grazing of livestock. In fact, some fertilisers put on land for cattle "locks up" other minerals in the soil and leads to major imbalances in minerals such as magnesium which is a very important mineral in human and animal metabolisms. And it is accepted that much land is selenium deficient these days. So really, meat eaters, vegetarians and vegans, pay their money and take their choice today, whether to supplement or not.

There was a reason you were ignored for so long - you post such utter nonsense it's difficult to actually converse with you. Furthermore you confessed to only posting to get a rise out of people, and that absolutely hasn't changed.

Forum rules suggest not to feed the trolls, so it's back on ignore for you.

quote:

Originally posted by malkie:
There was a reason you were ignored for so long - you post such utter nonsense it's difficult to actually converse with you. Furthermore you confessed to only posting to get a rise out of people, and that absolutely hasn't changed.

Forum rules suggest not to feed the trolls, so it's back on ignore for you.

No, only you, Malkie because you're so pompous about stuff, and it's the only way to burst a pompous bubble.

All the stuff about B12 and depleted land is fact, Malkie. And that's what you can't argue against, which is why you give up.

Malkie said: 'um, where do vegans and vegetarians get their B12 from then ? (straight answer please). Futhermore, in your opinion do most vegans / vegetarians take further suppliments or not ?'

I say: Vegetarians will get their B12 from eggs. Vegans will get theirs from tablets and fortified foods. This is because we live in a polluted world. The organisms that make B12 live in the soil, on plants, probably in unpolluted streams, possibly float about in unpolluted air. There is still no definitive answer about the possibility of getting B12 from plants. Some say that they only contain analogues. Others disagree. In an unpolluted world there would probably be no disagreements because the bacteria would be everywhere.

And, many if not most meat eaters have to get their B12 from cattle and sheep that have needed supplements for their gut bacteria to make B12. What's your point? I've already explained to you that meat eaters can't survive 'naturally' in this country. Vegans can't survive 'naturally' in this country.

If you argue that your intelligence allows you to buy meat from shops and cook it in an oven, then you have to concede that that is not 'natural'. If it is, then so is using intelligence to put B12 into tablets. The original source is bacteria. Whether we then get it from meat or tablets is irrelevant - we have to get it from somewhere.

Do most vegan/vegetarians take supplements? I don't know. Many of those I know do. Many meat eaters of my acqaintance do.

A question for Malkie: Do you hunt for your meat? Do you chase after and pounce on rabbits or zebras and then kill them with your bare hands? Do you tear through their skin and flesh with your teeth? Do you pick up dead animals you find on the roadside and take them home for dinner? If you were a true 'natural' omnivore, you would.

Does the sight of a dead bird lying in the grass start your mouth watering? How about the thought of biting into raw, bloody meat? Imagine the taste of the warm blood - the sharp metallic taste. Imagine the smell of raw meat and intestines, let the steam rising from the inside of the freshly dead body enter your nostrils and inhale it with pleasure. Is your mouth watering now?

What about the thought of a fresh slice of peach or a plate of strawberries or some plums, cherries or blackberries still warm from the sun? Are those more appetising thoughts? Most likely.
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Good post, Witchis.

quote:

Vegans will get theirs from tablets and fortified foods

thank you for conceeding my point

quote:

If you were a true 'natural' omnivore, you would.

I completely disagree. Making the most of development and technology around us certainly isn't unnatural.

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Is your mouth watering now?

If I had been starved for weeks, and given a live rabbit to eat, you can bet your life I'd strangle it with my bear hands and tear into it's flesh.

I'm 100% confident that you would do exactly the same thing. It's perfectly natural to maintain your own life over that of others.

Thing is, we live in a developed world, and buy prepared meat from shops rather than hunt and kill. It's isn't unnatural, it's convinence.

For you to be able to accurately make your point you'd personally have to grow all of your own vegetables and grains, which you have already said that you don't.

Yet another hypocritical line of arguement from martin.

quote:

Originally posted by malkie:

quote:

Vegans will get theirs from tablets and fortified foods

thank you for conceeding my point

quote:

If you were a true 'natural' omnivore, you would.

I completely disagree. Making the most of development and technology around us certainly isn't unnatural.

quote:

Is your mouth watering now?

If I had been starved for weeks, and given a live rabbit to eat, you can bet your life I'd strangle it with my bear hands and tear into it's flesh.

I'm 100% confident that you would do exactly the same thing. It's perfectly natural to maintain your own life over that of others.

Thing is, we live in a developed world, and buy prepared meat from shops rather than hunt and kill. It's isn't unnatural, it's convinence.

For you to be able to accurately make your point you'd personally have to grow all of your own vegetables and grains, which you have already said that you don't.

Yet another hypocritical line of arguement from martin.

You do like to take things out of context, Malkie, and then make it look like it supports what you said. Martin did say further down that meat eaters probably get theirs from the supplements provided to the animals they eat, which are fed all sorts of fortified cr*p. Vegans anyway get vitamin B12 from yeast extract, as I keep telling you, which is used in soups, nut roasts and puddings, etc. in a similar way to a stock cube and through the breakfast cereals that everyone eats. I do think that Martin offers good advice to people, both vegetarian and meat-eaters about supplementing their diet, if they feel it is necessary. Depleted minerals in land affect the livestock grazing on it as well as the plants grown on it. Salt licks provided for cattle contain all sorts of vitamins and minerals because of this factor.

Personally, if I was starving, I'd rather pick fruit, herbs and edible grasses like wild rocket. First of all, I would get lots of nutrients. Secondly, it would be there for the picking, and it would save me from expending precious energy trying to catch a rabbit. Have you ever tried to catch one. They're nippy little b*ggers! In such a weakened state, you'd be hardpushed to catch a mouse. If you'd been starved for weeks and given a live rabbit, you'd be hardpushed to do anything with it, never mind tear it apart, you'd be so weak. It could probably give you a nasty nip instead as it wriggled out your grasp.

quote:

Originally posted by malkie:

quote:

Vegans will get theirs from tablets and fortified foods

thank you for conceeding my point

quote:

If you were a true 'natural' omnivore, you would.

I completely disagree. Making the most of development and technology around us certainly isn't unnatural.

quote:

Is your mouth watering now?

If I had been starved for weeks, and given a live rabbit to eat, you can bet your life I'd strangle it with my bear hands and tear into it's flesh.

I'm 100% confident that you would do exactly the same thing. It's perfectly natural to maintain your own life over that of others.

Thing is, we live in a developed world, and buy prepared meat from shops rather than hunt and kill. It's isn't unnatural, it's convinence.

For you to be able to accurately make your point you'd personally have to grow all of your own vegetables and grains, which you have already said that you don't.

Yet another hypocritical line of arguement from martin.

... don't see Martin's line of argument as hypocritical, but it is rather a farfetched one from you... Given the choice of some tasty fruits or vegetables (there are lots you know, Malkie) or a live wriggling rabbit to tear apart if you were starving, I am sure you would go for the rabbit every time, but that's just because you're that sort of person!

I can't see what the big hoohah about whether people supplement their diet (meat, vegetarian or vegan) with vitamins and minerals is all about anyway. With depleted minerals in the soil in which crops and grown and animals are grazed, soft fizzy drinks leaching calcium from people's systems, stress depleting B vitamins and zinc, and smoking, drinking and antibiotics wreaking havoc on nutrients as well, it seems an eminently sensible option for everyone to consider. There's no use you thinking you have adequate intake of vitamin B12 when your lifestyle has turned it into a deficiency.

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Vegans anyway get vitamin B12 from yeast extract, as I keep telling you,

Um, no they don't, as I pointed out yesterday. Yeast extract does not contain B12. Yeast extract fortified (ie artifically added) with B12 contains B12.

The only way that vegan's get B12 is through artifical means.

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I can't see what the big hoohah about whether people supplement their diet (meat, vegetarian or vegan) with vitamins and minerals is all about anyway.

if you don't understand the point of the debate, why do you continue to post ?

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With depleted minerals in the soil in which crops and grown and animals are grazed, soft fizzy drinks leaching calcium from people's systems, stress depleting B vitamins and zinc, and smoking, drinking and antibiotics wreaking havoc on nutrients as well, it seems an eminently sensible option for everyone to consider

Evidence to support your claims please

quote:

There's no use you thinking you have adequate intake of vitamin B12

Mine is fine because I have a balanced diet.

p.s. this is me poking fun at your rather silly posting style of replying 3 or 4 times to a single post rather than condense it into one.

quote:

Originally posted by malkie:

quote:

Vegans anyway get vitamin B12 from yeast extract, as I keep telling you,

Um, no they don't, as I pointed out yesterday. Yeast extract does not contain B12. Yeast extract fortified (ie artifically added) with B12 contains B12.

The only way that vegan's get B12 is through artifical means.

I see you don't mention the B12 from fortified cereals that just about everyone eats. Does that not count?