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quote: Originally posted by malkie: quote: I can't see what the big hoohah about whether people supplement their diet (meat, vegetarian or vegan) with vitamins and minerals is all about anyway.
if you don't understand the point of the debate, why do you continue to post ?
The debate was about: Anyone who wants to validate there opinion on the deplorable meat industry or your opinion on vivisectors please feel free to do so if you can find any good points?it's just gone down a bit of a side road as is usual when you are around. This time it's about a particular B vitamin because you think you might win the argument, which is why you keep on and on about it. As Martin has already pointed out, meat eaters probably get their vitamin and mineral fixes through the supplements fed to cattle, sheep and pigs. |
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quote: Originally posted by malkie: quote: With depleted minerals in the soil in which crops and grown and animals are grazed, soft fizzy drinks leaching calcium from people's systems, stress depleting B vitamins and zinc, and smoking, drinking and antibiotics wreaking havoc on nutrients as well, it seems an eminently sensible option for everyone to consider
Evidence to support your claims please
http://www.organicconsumers.org/school/cocacola021605.cfmhttp://chetday.com/vitaminbdeficiencies.htmlhttp://books.guardian.co.uk/review/story/0,,1757835,00.htmlThere's loads more information. I've just picked 3 at random.  |
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quote: Originally posted by malkie: quote: There's no use you thinking you have adequate intake of vitamin B12
Mine is fine because I have a balanced diet. p.s. this is me poking fun at your rather silly posting style of replying 3 or 4 times to a single post rather than condense it into one.
You may think you are eating a balanced diet, Malkie, but does your lifestyle knock your vitamin and mineral intake awry. Do you drink fizzy drinks? Have you had a recent course of antibiotics? Do you have a couple of glasses of wine? Is your job or life stressful? Has the meat you've eaten come from a farm on which the soil mineral content is balanced? If not, have the cattle had supplements to counteract the lack of minerals they are taking in? Is your salt  otassium intake balanced? Have you taken account of all these factors? |
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quote: Originally posted by malkie: quote: There's no use you thinking you have adequate intake of vitamin B12
Mine is fine because I have a balanced diet. p.s. this is me poking fun at your rather silly posting style of replying 3 or 4 times to a single post rather than condense it into one.
I can't be bothered with the megaposts you post, Malkie. I like it short, sharp and to the point!  |
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Ok, I think this bit of the thread started with the debate about whether it is natural to be vegan or meat eater. I've just done some research, and even the vege society admits the only natural sources of B12 are animal based - the only way for a vegan to get it is through supplements. Martin suggested we could get it from bacteria on our foods if we weren't cleaning them so thoroughly. I'm not sure about this, although it seems unlikely to me. Martin also mentions that meat eaters need supplements in the form of cobalt given to livestock. This probably relates to poor siol quality, or poor feed, given to the animals rather than the animals themselves. It is a fairly modern technique to add these supplements to livestock, and wild animals certainly don't recieve them, so we did pretty well without them for thousands of years. quote: Meat eaters can't get their nourishment naturally
Sorry but that is simply incorrect. A person can get all the nutrients they need if they eat a balanced diet, including a wide range of foods. Eating meat does not suddenly mean you stop eating everything else, hence you continue to get all the nutrients. The only differnce is that vegans do not get all their nutrients (i.e. B12) without supplements - hence it can not be considered a natural diet. |
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quote: Originally posted by welfarist: Ok, I think this bit of the thread started with the debate about whether it is natural to be vegan or meat eater. I've just done some research, and even the vege society admits the only natural sources of B12 are animal based - the only way for a vegan to get it is through supplements. Martin suggested we could get it from bacteria on our foods if we weren't cleaning them so thoroughly. I'm not sure about this, although it seems unlikely to me. Martin also mentions that meat eaters need supplements in the form of cobalt given to livestock. This probably relates to poor siol quality, or poor feed, given to the animals rather than the animals themselves. It is a fairly modern technique to add these supplements to livestock, and wild animals certainly don't recieve them, so we did pretty well without them for thousands of years. quote: Meat eaters can't get their nourishment naturally
Sorry but that is simply incorrect. A person can get all the nutrients they need if they eat a balanced diet, including a wide range of foods. Eating meat does not suddenly mean you stop eating everything else, hence you continue to get all the nutrients. The only differnce is that vegans do not get all their nutrients (i.e. B12) without supplements - hence it can not be considered a natural diet.
I think the diet that most meat eaters eat today is not a natural diet either. Cattle are fed all types of rubbish (just what kind was shown with the BSE crisis), intelligent animals like pigs are kept chained, chickens live cr*ppy lives. None of them eat the diet that they would naturally eat in the wild. They are plumped full of antibiotics (not as medication but as a form of growth enhancer) and all sorts of vitamin and mineral supplements. I don't have a problem with meat eaters, although I think for the animal's sake and the person that consumes it, buying organic and from a source that you know allows the animals as natural a life as possible, is the best option. I honestly can't see what is wrong with someone taking in vitamin B12 in dairy or eggs, fortified cereal or yeast extract. Do you know what kind of cr*p is in a hamburger, frankfurter, and other meat-based products, never mind the preservatives that are added. |
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quote: Ok, I think this bit of the thread started with the debate about whether it is natural to be vegan or meat eater.
This is actually how the thread started. It just went down a side road because folk like Malkie wanted to beat vegans and vegetarians over the head with a B12 argument, incase it was one he might win. Ok, I think this bit of the thread started with the debate about whether it is natural to be vegan or meat eater. |
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quote: Originally posted by Thewitchisback: quote: Ok, I think this bit of the thread started with the debate about whether it is natural to be vegan or meat eater.
This is actually how the thread started. It just went down a side road because folk like Malkie wanted to beat vegans and vegetarians over the head with a B12 argument, incase it was one he might win. Ok, I think this bit of the thread started with the debate about whether it is natural to be vegan or meat eater.
I managed to copy what you actually said, Welfarist. I think how the thread started was: Anyone who wants to validate there opinion on the deplorable meat industry or your opinion on vivisectors please feel free to do so if you can find any good points? ... and, as I say, it's developed into some puerile argument about whether or not having to have yeast extract, dairy, eggs or fortified cereal in your diet makes your diet less natural than what is probably often a highly-processed meat one. AS I say, I have no problem with people being meat eaters, but I think it is foolish to say that you get a balanced and natural diet that way in today's world, and that supplementation in any diet is probably a good idea. How many people today do you know that eat lots of liver and other offal to ensure adequate intake of things like iron? In days gone by, virtually every bit of the animal got eaten (even, as they say, the squeak). |
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Malkie said: 'I completely disagree. Making the most of development and technology around us certainly isn't unnatural.'
I say: And making the most of development and technology to counteract the effect of pollution stopping us from getting B12 naturally so that we can make B12 tablets isn't unnatural. To use one of your favourite phrases - thank you for conceding the point.
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malkie said: 'For you to be able to accurately make your point you'd personally have to grow all of your own vegetables and grains, which you have already said that you don't. Yet another hypocritical line of arguement from martin.'
I say: I don't claim to lead a natural life. I have already said that we can't outside of the tropics. What point do you think that I'm trying to make? You are the one who is talking about natural living. Hence my reference to the natural omnivore life - which you don't lead.
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malkie said: 'The only way that vegan's get B12 is through artifical means.'
He conveniently forgets that the only way that meat eaters can survive outside of the tropics is through artificial means.
Little pigeons and sparrows can live here all year round but malkie, the mighty hunter, can't. He would die without artificial means to keep him alive on a Winter night. Or a Winter afternoon.
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Welfarist said: 'I've just done some research, and even the vege society admits the only natural sources of B12 are animal based - the only way for a vegan to get it is through supplements. Martin suggested we could get it from bacteria on our foods if we weren't cleaning them so thoroughly. I'm not sure about this, although it seems unlikely to me.
Martin also mentions that meat eaters need supplements in the form of cobalt given to livestock. This probably relates to poor siol quality, or poor feed, given to the animals rather than the animals themselves. It is a fairly modern technique to add these supplements to livestock, and wild animals certainly don't recieve them, so we did pretty well without them for thousands of years.'
I say: I've never said that we can get our B12 without tablets or fortified foods. I said that this is because we don't live natural lives. In an unpolluted world - a natural world - there could be adequate amounts of the bacteria everywhere.
I said that cobalt needs to be added to cattle and sheep feed because of poor quality soils. They are needed in areas which once had enough cobalt because there is now not enough. Not enough naturally any more. I was saying that humans who eat meat very often have to get their B12 by supplementation whether they want it or not. Whether they are aware of it or not.
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Then Welfarist partially quoted me: 'Meat eaters can't get their nourishment naturally'
And then said: 'Sorry but that is simply incorrect. A person can get all the nutrients they need if they eat a balanced diet, including a wide range of foods. Eating meat does not suddenly mean you stop eating everything else, hence you continue to get all the nutrients. The only differnce is that vegans do not get all their nutrients (i.e. B12) without supplements - hence it can not be considered a natural diet.'
I say: What I said, and it works as a whole and not one line is: 'Meat eaters can't get their nourishment naturally. In many places the soil is so depleted of cobalt - or never had enough to start with - that cattle and sheep have to have cobalt supplements so that the bacteria in their guts can make B12. Therefore, humans who eat them are having supplements whether they want them or not. None of us who live outside the tropics could survive in the Winter without the intelligence to build houses, make clothes and light fires. And to import food from warmer climates. If it is unnatural to use our intelligence to make B12 tablets or to fortify food with it, it is unnatural to live in these latitudes and to farm animals.' I wrote this in reply to Malkie's suggestion that vegans can't maintain a healthy diet without supplementation, which is unnatural.
No one who lives outside of the tropics can lead a 'natural' life - without using our intelligence to do so. If it is natural to import food, light fires, give supplements to cattle, etc, it is natural to make vitamin tablets.
You really shouldn't quote only part of something so that it makes no sense. Luckily, it was only from the previous page. If it had been 12 pages back no one would have been able to find it. One reason that my posts are so long is that I make sure that I never misquote anyone. I put in all relevant detail.
And if we were leading a natural life - in the tropics, with lots of B12-producing bacteria dripping from leaves and skating over the skins of fruits - we would not need vitamin tablets.
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quote: Originally posted by MartinGBUK:
Malkie said: 'I completely disagree. Making the most of development and technology around us certainly isn't unnatural.'
I say: And making the most of development and technology to counteract the effect of pollution stopping us from getting B12 naturally so that we can make B12 tablets isn't unnatural. To use one of your favourite phrases - thank you for conceding the point.
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malkie said: 'For you to be able to accurately make your point you'd personally have to grow all of your own vegetables and grains, which you have already said that you don't. Yet another hypocritical line of arguement from martin.'
I say: I don't claim to lead a natural life. I have already said that we can't outside of the tropics. What point do you think that I'm trying to make? You are the one who is talking about natural living. Hence my reference to the natural omnivore life - which you don't lead.
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malkie said: 'The only way that vegan's get B12 is through artifical means.'
He conveniently forgets that the only way that meat eaters can survive outside of the tropics is through artificial means.
Little pigeons and sparrows can live here all year round but malkie, the mighty hunter, can't. He would die without artificial means to keep him alive on a Winter night. Or a Winter afternoon.
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Welfarist said: 'I've just done some research, and even the vege society admits the only natural sources of B12 are animal based - the only way for a vegan to get it is through supplements. Martin suggested we could get it from bacteria on our foods if we weren't cleaning them so thoroughly. I'm not sure about this, although it seems unlikely to me.
Martin also mentions that meat eaters need supplements in the form of cobalt given to livestock. This probably relates to poor siol quality, or poor feed, given to the animals rather than the animals themselves. It is a fairly modern technique to add these supplements to livestock, and wild animals certainly don't recieve them, so we did pretty well without them for thousands of years.'
I say: I've never said that we can get our B12 without tablets or fortified foods. I said that this is because we don't live natural lives. In an unpolluted world - a natural world - there could be adequate amounts of the bacteria everywhere.
I said that cobalt needs to be added to cattle and sheep feed because of poor quality soils. They are needed in areas which once had enough cobalt because there is now not enough. Not enough naturally any more. I was saying that humans who eat meat very often have to get their B12 by supplementation whether they want it or not. Whether they are aware of it or not.
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Then Welfarist partially quoted me: 'Meat eaters can't get their nourishment naturally'
And then said: 'Sorry but that is simply incorrect. A person can get all the nutrients they need if they eat a balanced diet, including a wide range of foods. Eating meat does not suddenly mean you stop eating everything else, hence you continue to get all the nutrients. The only differnce is that vegans do not get all their nutrients (i.e. B12) without supplements - hence it can not be considered a natural diet.'
I say: What I said, and it works as a whole and not one line is: 'Meat eaters can't get their nourishment naturally. In many places the soil is so depleted of cobalt - or never had enough to start with - that cattle and sheep have to have cobalt supplements so that the bacteria in their guts can make B12. Therefore, humans who eat them are having supplements whether they want them or not. None of us who live outside the tropics could survive in the Winter without the intelligence to build houses, make clothes and light fires. And to import food from warmer climates. If it is unnatural to use our intelligence to make B12 tablets or to fortify food with it, it is unnatural to live in these latitudes and to farm animals.' I wrote this in reply to Malkie's suggestion that vegans can't maintain a healthy diet without supplementation, which is unnatural.
No one who lives outside of the tropics can lead a 'natural' life - without using our intelligence to do so. If it is natural to import food, light fires, give supplements to cattle, etc, it is natural to make vitamin tablets.
You really shouldn't quote only part of something so that it makes no sense. Luckily, it was only from the previous page. If it had been 12 pages back no one would have been able to find it. One reason that my posts are so long is that I make sure that I never misquote anyone. I put in all relevant detail.
And if we were leading a natural life - in the tropics, with lots of B12-producing bacteria dripping from leaves and skating over the skins of fruits - we would not need vitamin tablets.
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Malkie said: 'I completely disagree. Making the most of development and technology around us certainly isn't unnatural.' I say: And making the most of development and technology to counteract the effect of pollution stopping us from getting B12 naturally so that we can make B12 tablets isn't unnatural. To use one of your favourite phrases - . thank you for conceding the pointlove it, Martin... |
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Meat eaters aren't eating as naturally as they think. You do see liver and kidneys in your local supermarket. How often do you see calf's brains or unbleached tripe? Or any of the other not so attractive looking bits of meat that your ancestors would have eaten. Mind you, not sure you should eat liver these days, being as it's the toxic clearing house, and animals have a lot of toxics to clear out these days. And brains might be a bit dangerous now with vCJD. And unbleached tripe for the majority of us, I imagine, would be just a bit too nauseous looking to even contemplate eating. Natural meat-eaters indeed. More like picky meat eaters.
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Personally I have no problem with people who choose to be vegetarian or vegan for animal welfare/ rights related issues, but to start claiming that humans are naturally vegan, and that animal products are bad for us etc. is just plain wrong.
I agree that there are faults in the farming system. We need to (as thewitch said) get back to organic farming, where animals are kept in decent, hygenic, high welfare conditions, are not pumped full of wierd chemicals, and are slaughtered as humanely and hygenically as possible.
But - try to tell me it's unnatural or immoral to eat animal products and I have to laugh.
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quote: Originally posted by welfarist:
Personally I have no problem with people who choose to be vegetarian or vegan for animal welfare/ rights related issues, but to start claiming that humans are naturally vegan, and that animal products are bad for us etc. is just plain wrong.
I agree that there are faults in the farming system. We need to (as thewitch said) get back to organic farming, where animals are kept in decent, hygenic, high welfare conditions, are not pumped full of wierd chemicals, and are slaughtered as humanely and hygenically as possible.
But - try to tell me it's unnatural or immoral to eat animal products and I have to laugh.
There may well have been vegetarian/vegan ancestors of ours in various parts of the world, where vegetation was plentiful and edible animals virtually non-existent, so I think it is fair to say that neither is vegetarianism or veganism unnatural. Both diets if properly undertaken probably lead to healthy lives, but, with animal husbandry being so cr*p at the moment, and deficient soil for grazing, and less organ meat being eaten, it is as wise for meat eaters to supplement their diet, as it probably is for vegetarians/vegans to supplement theirs. Today's polluted and soil depleted farming leaves much to be desired, unless special care is taken such as buying organic. |
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I would point out that the poor soil also means that the plant based foods we eat are also deficient in nutrients...
But overall I completely agree with your post. Both diets can be perfectly healthy if you eat enough of the right, good quality foods.
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quote: Originally posted by welfarist:
I would point out that the poor soil also means that the plant based foods we eat are also deficient in nutrients...
But overall I completely agree with your post. Both diets can be perfectly healthy if you eat enough of the right, good quality foods.
I've mentioned the fact that depleted soil is a problem both for livestock and arable farming in several posts, Welfarist, and assumed this is how the post above would read. It's what I meant by vegans/vegetarians supplementing theirs, and why I referred to soil depleted farming and not specifying organic meat particularly. Reading it again, I can see where it looks a bit ambiguous so hope this clears it up. |
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Martin, I'm reading a book called "The Ecology of Eden", I think by Evan Eisenberg (or similar name) at the moment, which goes into the amount of damage we are causing to the environment, and has lots of information on the essential minutiae of life we are destroying irrevocably in our alliance with grasses and livestock and with our rapidly increasing monocultures - I think the point you were making basically with the Vitamin B12 argument. It makes you realise just how destructive meat-eating is - at a time when human beings were less in number, meat-eating had relatively little impact on the planet. Now it is one of the main reasons for the destruction of a healthy soil system and the disturbance and devastation of ancient ecology systems. With non-natural fertilisers and pesticides, arable farming has a lot to answer for too, and no doubt, even from a relatively selfish human view, its products are not as healthy for us as they could be, or that we think they are.  |
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Indeed. And all the methane that farmed animals produce adds to global warming. Not forgetting all the rain forests that are being cut down to grow food to feed them.
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quote: Originally posted by MartinGBUK:
Indeed. And all the methane that farmed animals produce adds to global warming. Not forgetting all the rain forests that are being cut down to grow food to feed them.
And all the methane that farmed animals produce adds to global warming.Don't forget Malkie when you're talking about all that hot gas ... (No doubt this post will get deleted for being cheeky ) |
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