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Yeh same old people spouting same old nonsense, but its clear to see why is the case.
The B12 debate was used last time to derail this same thread, until of course it was removed because it became abusive.
It is possible to get B12 from nature, but not on the sterilised cleaned vegetables most supermarkets sell. The most recent reseacrh has shown that vegans should be taking supplements for this as they will struggle to find it in the modern diet, and althoguh their was belief that certain foods contain B12 and that humans can produce their own, arent fully correct. As far as I know there are no non animal foods that contain real B12. The unclean vegetables that may contain the B12 are from animal guts, in the same way that we could already produce our own, ie our own excrement. This has been tested actually, and was proven to be a viable method for getting B12. So whatever you class as natural or not (like any of us can possibly be the judge)pick ya poisen, pop a vege pill or start filtering ya own faeces, your choice.
Define natural.....
And it isnt unatural for us to eat meat or vegetables, due to the fact humans are omnivores, maybe Malkie the great also needs a few basic lessons in ecology. Even better just open your eyes, the excessive consumption of animal products is behind many of those illnesses Malkie feels so obligated to solve/cure for us all. Is this the natural way Malkie??
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quote: Originally posted by RandomElement:
Yeh same old people spouting same old nonsense, but its clear to see why is the case.
The B12 debate was used last time to derail this same thread, until of course it was removed because it became abusive.
It is possible to get B12 from nature, but not on the sterilised cleaned vegetables most supermarkets sell. The most recent reseacrh has shown that vegans should be taking supplements for this as they will struggle to find it in the modern diet, and althoguh their was belief that certain foods contain B12 and that humans can produce their own, arent fully correct. As far as I know there are no non animal foods that contain real B12. The unclean vegetables that may contain the B12 are from animal guts, in the same way that we could already produce our own, ie our own excrement. This has been tested actually, and was proven to be a viable method for getting B12. So whatever you class as natural or not (like any of us can possibly be the judge)pick ya poisen, pop a vege pill or start filtering ya own faeces, your choice.
Define natural.....
And it isnt unatural for us to eat meat or vegetables, due to the fact humans are omnivores, maybe Malkie the great also needs a few basic lessons in ecology. Even better just open your eyes, the excessive consumption of animal products is behind many of those illnesses Malkie feels so obligated to solve/cure for us all. Is this the natural way Malkie??
Whether people are meat eaters, vegetarians, vegans or omniverous, it is probably still beneficial for folks to take supplements. We've farmed our land to a standstill basically, both for arable and livestock farming, and upset the balance of any nutrients that do remain. Nowadays, salt licks for livestock contain all sorts of mineral supplements for the animals' health as they no longer get it from the land they are grazing on, if they are grazing at all, and not stuck in some dark shed somewhere living out a meagre life as many of them are. Meat-eating may well have been something that our ancestors did, but they didn't eat meat on the type of unnatural scale that it is done today, and they would have eaten organ meats and other less appetising parts of the animals, the pieces we discard, which would have provided them with vital nutrients not obtainable from the parts of the animal that we prefer. |
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Good link Witch. As if it wasnt bad enough when its fresh.  As weve seen before, we do have guidelines to stop such meats getting to human markets, but they do nevertheless. Not just an issue with foul foodstuffs though, also an animal rights issue, a resource issue and an environmental one. Go check your carbon footprint, it is acknowledged that a meat diet is much worse that a vegan diet, and this is only going to get worse with our growing population. |
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quote: Originally posted by RandomElement: Good link Witch. As if it wasnt bad enough when its fresh. As weve seen before, we do have guidelines to stop such meats getting to human markets, but they do nevertheless. Not just an issue with foul foodstuffs though, also an animal rights issue, a resource issue and an environmental one. Go check your carbon footprint, it is acknowledged that a meat diet is much worse that a vegan diet, and this is only going to get worse with our growing population.
Thank you, Random Element.  I did have a book at one time. I'm pretty sure I've still got it, just not sure where. It was called "Fast Food Nation", and it was a real eye opener about the fast food industry. Well worth reading even for confirmed meat eaters. It is about the US, but could still well make people who are meat eaters at least be pretty choosy about the quality of meat that they consume and where they consume it. Here's the Wikipaedia link to a bit about the book, if anybody hasn't heard of it, and are interested in reading it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fast_Food_Nation |
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Yes I have heard good things about it, just havent managed to pick it up as yet, theyve just made into a film too I believe, which I will try and see.
Thx for link though, as always sure the book will be better and more in depth, so will try and buy it.
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quote: Originally posted by malkie:
I can't think of one good thing to say about the vegetable industry - I personally think it's cruel and unnecessary in today's society.
So you don’t eat vegetables then? Tell me something if you cannot maintain a healthy diet without consuming flesh why is it when i went for my last check up and saw my health provider they said i was in 100% good health? I have seen more then one physician and health care provider on more then one occasion and they have all said the same thing are you implying these people are incorrect and don’t know their job? also just to point out one of them has been a professional health provider for more then 23 years Also going back sometime ago on BBC2 there was a researcher who has been studying vegetarians for over 30 years and at the end of it he said he found no evidence what so ever to indicate that a vegetarian diet is unhealthy Are you saying this guy who has studied vegetarian diets for over 30 years is incorrect in his findings? I was more unhealthy when i use to consume animal flesh but now i have made that wonderful switch to veganism i couldn’t feel better Maybe you should leave off that flesh for a month or so and then you may just stop talking so much crap |
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quote: Maybe you should leave off that flesh for a month or so and then you may just stop talking so much crap
Without any vegetables, that might be the only cr*p that can make its way out...  |
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Yes but you can see why they all started to seperate the issue, at least they can find some science in vivesection, where as their arguement here always looked like what it was, selfish and mindless. Heres another great new article, and yes it is only the Independent, my subscription to the Lancet still not through. Not only healthier but smarter too. http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/health_medical/article2076161.ece |
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quote: Originally posted by RandomElement: Yes but you can see why they all started to seperate the issue, at least they can find some science in vivesection, where as their arguement here always looked like what it was, selfish and mindless. Heres another great new article, and yes it is only the Independent, my subscription to the Lancet still not through. Not only healthier but smarter too. http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/health_medical/article2076161.ece
Yes, as you can see from Malkie's wriggly answers on the "animal testing" forum, we wouldn't want to look at the morality and ethics of doing thing, now would we? By that criteria, what was done in concentration camps during the second world war would have to be looked upon as scientific experiments being carried out and not atrocities. Just off to have a look at your article... |
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malkie claims that one cannot maintain a healthy diet without consuming animal flesh, so would you be as kind to please back this statement up and show me what evidence you have to make such statements
Hello RandomElement
How you doing
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quote: It IS natural for humans to eat meat, evolution and our anatomy and physiology makes that clear. We do not have the extra stomachs, natural urge to practice coprophagia, internal microorganisms etc to digest the most commonly available plant materials like rabbits, horses, cows etc do.
It is completely un"natural" for humans to eat meat. We are biological frugivores. Our "anatomy and physiology" most certainly do not "make clear" that we should eat meat. Quite the opposite. In reality we are closest to the bonobo, a frugivore. The natural foods of our species can be considered wild fruit and young leaf tips. Our intestinal flora, when healthy, is "designed" for the utilisation of sugars, from fruit. Our dentition also represent that of a fruit- eater. We lack the long, piercing true "canines" and instead possess incisor-form cuspids. These are characteristic of frugivorous species. Also absent are carnassials, shearing teeth. Our teeth are nothing like that of a "natural" meat-eating species. While on the subject of "urges", where is the "urge" to consume, whole, raw animals having killed them with our natural biological equipment? Where is the "urge" to "scavenge" for decomposing corpses as many fantasising meat-eaters like to claim? Humans have no "natural" ability to obtain or consume animals. Only the invention of tools and fire has allowed for this. |
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Welcome to the forum! An insightful post, that is both anatomicaly precise and argueabley correct. I am an infrequent contributor to this forum, due to other commitments. However, when I am blessed with the rare opportunity, will read posts that interest and inspire me. Your post did exactly that. Thankyou.
PS. Expect a response from a certain "Malkie"; arrogant, pompous, unlikeable.... and very often, wrong. "Watch this space" as "they" say!
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We can live in hope.
I would say its due to them having less to say in this area, as there doesnt seem to be any human benefit to this one, its just 'natural'. But that didnt stop them walking all the standard arguements out last time, so be patient, maybe theyll show you their weak points again. We went through much of what Distant mentioned too, you can just hope that RobdeManc comes back for that one. At one point there was several threadsregarding other animal abuse topics, but most were evntually removed after the pro viv lot trampled all over them, getting more and more pedantic and generally more abusive. Which is odd as it seems to infuriate Malkie so much on the other debate.
If you havent seen, do try and watch Earthlings all, very powerful film, no holds barred regarding our species abuse of nh animals. Be warned, truly is graphic and may disturb younger viewers. Even available on youtube in 3 parts.
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Rubbish pets do not need to eat meat to live healthy just like humans don't
Vivisection
responsible for millions of killings due to there bad science
I guess it’s not half of you peoples fault that you have been brain washed to think this is the way of life
Do you ever sit and think what you are eating was once a living being growing in a mothers womb like you and i did now you are eating it
Pretty disturbing shit if you ask me
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"If I had been starved for weeks, and given a live rabbit to eat, you can bet your life I'd strangle it with my bear hands and tear into it's flesh."
Why the curious pre-requisite that you need be "starved for weeks" before killing and eating an animal with your "bare-hands" ? How many natural/instinctive corpse-eaters need to be "starved for weeks" to provoke a natural/instinctive reaction?
How would you set about catching this rabbit without the use of tools/traps etc ?
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quote: Originally posted by TheAM:
"If I had been starved for weeks, and given a live rabbit to eat, you can bet your life I'd strangle it with my bear hands and tear into it's flesh."
Why the curious pre-requisite that you need be "starved for weeks" before killing and eating an animal with your "bare-hands" ? How many natural/instinctive corpse-eaters need to be "starved for weeks" to provoke a natural/instinctive reaction?
How would you set about catching this rabbit without the use of tools/traps etc ?
Because basically, having been starved for weeks, this person would be in same state of mind as the people who crashed in the Andes (I think that's where it was), and who reverted to eating human flesh in order to survive. Is that natural? And yet it happened when the survival instinct cut in. So the statement is actually agreeing with you - the subject actually needs to be in dire circumstances before he will attempt to kill and eat raw rabbit. Somehow, I can't see a fox or a wolf waiting till they were weak with hunger before catching something to eat (like you state). I think this person might have trouble ripping a rabbit to bits, after weeks of starvation, anyway. Human 0 - Rabbit 1 ! |
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