"At a question-and-answer session following a press screening last Monday, some of the journalists present seemed intent on recycling the arguments of 2004. One put it to Winterbottom that the Tipton Three had indeed been part of al-Qaeda, and had taken part in a last-ditch firefight with the Taliban in a network of caves. Told that there was no evidence to support this allegation, he retorted that it was merely an 'alternative view'."
And you should probably read it in full. It shows how Blair bravely fought for the release of 'our boys'... and then briefed against them in order to downplay the revelations of torture.
They wanted to travel to Afghanistan to see if they could help their muslim brothers and were caught up in the whole mess..they were trying to get back to Pakistan when they were picked up by the Northern Alliance...the programme depicts their version of events which if true should make us all very, very sad....
The why were they there question is very important -
Naivety seems to be the key. Ignorance of the real situation in Afghanistan led them to believe that young men offering help there could mean something other than as fighters. How impossible a situation were they in when they got taken to the Taliban compound, can you imagine trying to tell them they didn't want to fight? What else do young men in a war zone do but fight?
They simply shouldn't have gone. Its partly television giving us a false sense of familiarity with places we know nothing about, a Lonely Planet mentality that if we know where the bus station is and have a map of hotels we can pass freely anywhere, and largely us in the West being detached from reality generaly.....
Originally posted by Lazenby: They wanted to travel to Afghanistan to see if they could help their muslim brothers and were caught up in the whole mess..they were trying to get back to Pakistan when they were picked up by the Northern Alliance...the programme depicts their version of events which if true should make us all very, very sad....
Oh puleeeeeeesssse!! Do yuo really buy into their story, come on, normal people don't go to Pakistan and by mistake end up in Afganistan, in a WAR! Oh yeah, OOPS! Simple question would you do that? NO, of course not. And what this junk film hides is that the war had been going on for FOUR MONTHS when these 'innocent British lads' went over there.
There was nothing in this film that was unbelievable, both in terms of some lads ending up in Afghanistan, and their treatment, Just because most of us don’t want to Afghanistan doesn’t mean four bored lads wouldn’t go for a jaunt. I wouldn’t mind having a look myself.
I have worked with Americans in a military context and nothing about their attitudes and behavior doesn’t ring true, It seems to me much easier to believe it as just one big mess rather than some convoluted conspiracy theory. If either the American government or the British government could have made anything stick (unpaid parking tickets, untied shoelaces etc) do you not think they would have, to justify the incarceration. I do hope they are suing the ass off the USA government, it’s the only thing they understand.
it is quite feasible that normal people go to Pakistan. It is also quite feasible that they feel enough for their fellow humans to want to help them. charity/humanitarian work has been ongoing throughout most of Afghanistan for the past 25 years - it is/was the poorest country in the world after all.
i went to pakistan in feb 2002 on a family trip & i very nearly went to afghanistan with an aid convoy myself. bear in mind there are at least 6 million Afghan refugees in Pakistan so it's better to help people in their homes than put them in camps.
also these guys were already in Pakistan when the bombing started apparently.
With all the accusations of stereotyping going on here – what about the stereotyping of Coalition intelligence services …. remember we are taking the word of convicted criminals as to their treatment when they we captured in the company of foreign terrorists.
When it comes to ‘prisoner handling’ PACE does don’t apply – its is supposed to be robust, it is supposed to confuse & disorientate captives prior to integration. If you are a civilian, don’t go getting mixed up in somebody elses war: if you do, remember “Big boys games, big boys rules” & don’t bleat about it afterwards
Sure, these guys may not have been model citizens, but they are most certainly not terrorists.
Their stories have been verified by intelligence agencies, and not a lot of that is questioned in the film because it has been proven, and is unecessary to the plot of the film.
The point of the film is to recount the atrocites suffered by these innocent guys and their struggle to escape from a dire situation.
What is so unplausable that they wanted to see what Afghanistan was like for themselves. It is right on the border of Pakistan and only a coach journey away. They were also encoraged to offer support to those across the border, so why not go over there and see what all the fuss is about.
It is an objective and balanced thing to do, so they could make their own minds up about the policical situation.
They were in Afghanistan for a reason. To be honest they don't seem to have much intellectual capacity otherwise they would have exlplained the whole thing to their U.S. captors immeadiately. The state of their minds after witnessing events and uncertainty about what exactly was going on would account for this.
Who do you trust? US army do not come over as rational under the circumstances. Just looking to get a scapegoat, instead of actually investigating the facts and finding they have 500 Afghans.
Virtually any major world faith, as well as minor faiths, have their own extremeist far right radical group who are composed of hardline nutters.
It is the extemeists who are the real danger in this issue.
Let's face it, Bush's administration got the wrong men. 500 held in Guantanmo, only 10 charged. These 10 are probably held on flimsy charges with no real grounds for justification either.
It's the typical hot headed American approach to rush in with guns blazing, find someone to hold responsible and show the world that they are doing something.
The most dangerous men? Rubbish. The dangerous men have disappeared into the woodwork.
It's just a round up of Afghans who fit the bill for the US political agenda. It also keeps George W in power, as the general public think he is actually doing something, instead of just wasting public money on inefficient techniques.
Bureacracy, Inefficiency, Corruption, three trademarks of the Bush administration.
The world is a big place, and if you've got friends and money, Osama Bin Laden and his henchmen are likely to remain hidden for a little while yet. It would be better if more efforts were invested in the continual operation to track town his network and the head honcho, Osama himself.
Guantanamo is simply there for show. The US will gain little from it in terms of real intelligence. If they keep forcing the confessions through, it may be enough to appease the American public.
Originally posted by Lazenby: They wanted to travel to Afghanistan to see if they could help their muslim brothers and were caught up in the whole mess..they were trying to get back to Pakistan when they were picked up by the Northern Alliance...the programme depicts their version of events which if true should make us all very, very sad....
Oh puleeeeeeesssse!! Do yuo really buy into their story, come on, normal people don't go to Pakistan and by mistake end up in Afganistan, in a WAR! Oh yeah, OOPS! Simple question would you do that? NO, of course not. And what this junk film hides is that the war had been going on for FOUR MONTHS when these 'innocent British lads' went over there.
I must admit, Robert, I have a tendency to agree with you there. As much as I disagree with this so-called war on terror business, I have to say it's highly peculiar as to why those 3 went to Afghanistan. "To help their muslim brothers" seems to have been stated as the reason. But really they couldn't have been completely unaware of the situation in Afghanistan unless they lived in a complete vacuum at the time. The other natural question is what on Earth did they mean by "help"? It didn't look like they were in a position to improve lives of the poor and the innocent in Afghanistan and so, unfortunately, it looks like the only "help" they could offer was to fight on the side of their young muslim brothers. I don't want to offend anyone here but it's not really that unreasonable to consider that as a possibility under the circumstances, wouldn't you say? Basically, as it might be a cliche but those guys are either very stupid or very clever. And there are some reasons to be very sceptical as to their reasons for being in Afghanistan. And their fraud, handling stolen goods track record back home doesn't really inspire much confidence or desire to believe them 100%.
They heeded the advice of a local Muslim cleric while in Pakistan, to help their brothers across the border. To help them and do what, humanitarian aid, religious support, armed combat, whatever, it is unclear but I think the adventure was set about in good faith, and to see exactly what was going on there.
They knew little of the regime in Afghanistan. Let's face it, the world knew nothing about this closed society before the 'war on terror'.
They are not the shapest tools in the shed, nut in seriousness it is unlikely they decided to suddenly embark on a Jihad in the middle of their Pakistan trip.
The idea of finding out what exactly was going on probably appealed to them, and it really is a stones throw away from their destination.
Originally posted by Lazenby: They wanted to travel to Afghanistan to see if they could help their muslim brothers and were caught up in the whole mess..they were trying to get back to Pakistan when they were picked up by the Northern Alliance...the programme depicts their version of events which if true should make us all very, very sad....
Oh puleeeeeeesssse!! Do yuo really buy into their story, come on, normal people don't go to Pakistan and by mistake end up in Afganistan, in a WAR! Oh yeah, OOPS! Simple question would you do that? NO, of course not. And what this junk film hides is that the war had been going on for FOUR MONTHS when these 'innocent British lads' went over there.
WELL SAID
I must admit, Robert, I have a tendency to agree with you there. As much as I disagree with this so-called war on terror business, I have to say it's highly peculiar as to why those 3 went to Afghanistan. "To help their muslim brothers" seems to have been stated as the reason. But really they couldn't have been completely unaware of the situation in Afghanistan unless they lived in a complete vacuum at the time. The other natural question is what on Earth did they mean by "help"? It didn't look like they were in a position to improve lives of the poor and the innocent in Afghanistan and so, unfortunately, it looks like the only "help" they could offer was to fight on the side of their young muslim brothers. I don't want to offend anyone here but it's not really that unreasonable to consider that as a possibility under the circumstances, wouldn't you say? Basically, as it might be a cliche but those guys are either very stupid or very clever. And there are some reasons to be very sceptical as to their reasons for being in Afghanistan. And their fraud, handling stolen goods track record back home doesn't really inspire much confidence or desire to believe them 100%.
There was that middle class asian American boy a few months ago who was doing a School project on Iraq. He wanted to see for himself what it was like over there so he just bought a ticket and got on a plane. His parents didn't know about until he was missing. Luckily for him he was picked up quite quick and sent back unscathed. So I believe that naivety could play a big part in it, and just being put in the wrong place at the wrong time. It's so easy to look in hindsight, to say they were stupid or had a motif for being there. If they were clever then they wouldn't have been caught. Let's face it out of hundreds of people inprisoned at Guantanamo, only 10 were found guilty. One thing that the human race ought to have learnt is that using tortue as a means to gain reliable intelligence is at best a way of getting false confessions. So whose to say the 10 convicted were not just broken into submission.
