Absolutely disgusted at what happened to British citizens, it seems we now don't have a say in what happens over here, Blair is a yank puppet, it's time to break relations, what happened to the Geneva convention
The problem is that the UK didn''t HAVE a policy of detention without charge during war until illegal combatants were found on the field of battle. Illegal combatants break every law regarding warfare and dealing with them in legal terms is a nest of vipers. You cannot apply criminal law to these individuals because they come under military law, under military law for the most part their rights have been honoured, in our recent past they would have been shot as acting as soldiers while pretending to be a civilian is one of the worst crimes commited on a battlefield.
The Charter of the United Nations outlaws the use of military force by civilians for any purpose other than individual and collective self-defense.
Obviously people using military hardware and waging war but pretending to be civilians allowing them to escape amongst innocents and/or comitting aggressive acts while in amongst civilians is repellant to the extreme and these actions raise incredible moral dilemma's. Until we have clarity on these issues and collectivly make a choice mistakes will be made. However, I am afraid it won't be until many more completely innocent people die at the hands of illegal combatants will that day come.
Very moving film, superbly made. Its sad to think that some people are still squirming around in charters and conventions in the hope they can cobble together some sort of tenous legal justification for Guantanomo. What ever eases your concsience twobells.
[QUOTE]Britain, and Tony Blair, must publicly condemn the American's policy of torture, which is what is happening, not just in Guantanamo, but also in Iraq.QUOTE]
I can't help wondering why it took 3 months for the British authorities to confirm that they were working in Curry's and doing community service at the time that video of Bin Laden was taken. 3 months where presumably the British would have known they would be "thoroughly interrogated" shall we say. Add that to the recent "alleged" complicity in extraordinary renditions and we don't look much sweeter than the Americans.
Originally posted by twobells: ...You cannot apply criminal law to these individuals because they come under military law, under military law for the most part their rights have been honoured, in our recent past they would have been shot as acting as soldiers while pretending to be a civilian is one of the worst crimes commited on a battlefield.
Well said twobells.
It seems that certain ‘Michaels’ i.e. a Moore or a Winterbottom, have the ability to make idiots weep at the ‘plight’ of murderers and terrorists through their manipulation and distortion of the facts by using the magic of television.
Originally posted by Manic_UK: modna: It's sadder to think that there are some people who actually accept money to muddy the waters with such dross.
(Whoops. There I go again. Tell me, twobells... are you a fighter? You're a fighter, aren't you?)
Forgot to mention you Manic UK in my last post... Does anyone, with a view opposed to yours, have to secretly be in the pay of some agency or another? Could it not be that there is are differing opinions to your on this subject? I've looked at bloggerheads.com, you are a talented cartoonist/artist, perhaps one day you'll be a Moore or a Winterbottom but the saddest fact is that with all your ability to make pretty pictures you still talk straight out of your butt.
Sense that smack on the nose Manic_UK? It's the feeling of the point hitting you square in the face. But you’re lucky you see, in the soft squishy liberal world you live in, you are never really in harms way and thats about the only kind of injury you're ever likely to endure.
Please continue to show your preparedness to accept ANY version of events no matter how biased or untruthful as long as it fits your agenda, it helps to strengthen the understanding that this is what bleeding heart liberals so often to do.
I believe that detention without trial is normal and accepted practice in a war zone, i.e. they tend to put prisoners of war, in PRISONS, fairly quickly rather than fussing about getting them legal aid etc. At a later time, they might be subject to military law but not civil law. In fact, as has already been mentioned, the shooting of illegal combatants was accepted in recent times and that's what these guys were, so POW's rights are too good for them. I’d say bring that practice back, you of course would disagree but I wonder how you would handle it? Oh, I know you’d only be nasty to the bad people and of course you’d always know who they are, without fail. Oh but you wouldn’t would you? No you’d be on a peace march somewhere.
Torture is so bad too isn’t it? And of course you are totally accepting of the depiction of the oh so cruel torture in this film. How dare they shout at these nice young men and call them names! Golly all they wanted to do was blow some innocent people to bits.
So, as far as I understand it Robert1234, you believe:
1. That we are formally at war (with a verb) and totally different rules apply.
2. That torture is acceptable when used on 'bad' people.
3. That sometimes torture is required to find out who the bad people are.
4. That these men who where interrogated and investigated by the US and by the UK - and then released - must have been guilty of something.
Sorry, but even if we operate under the assumption that these men are guilty of the worst kind of terrorist atrocity, it would still make the treatment they received wrong... both in a moral and a practical sense.
I note also that you claim the movie misrepresented their treatment then - without pausing for breath - misrepresent this yourself by inferring that it only involved a bit of name-calling.
One can imagine these things happening to numerous numerous people but to actually see it was truly shocking. The documentary sent a strong message about lack of justice, lack of knowledge, lack of understanding all on the point of America. When a man, or a country for that matter is down in the dirt this is when the true values and strengths come out and sadly all of this was lacking from America’s standpoint. The phrase – a bull in a china shop comes to mind – which is probably not appropriate but it typifies policy at the moment!
If these young men were combatants – which given the evidence of the programme seems not to be the case and has been subsequently proven that no evidence could be found – why weren’t they treated as combatants with all the rights of the Geneva convention. On top of this the authorities seemed totally blinkered to facts, which would have proven the case for these men.
To treat people in this way in reality shows the place where American society is at – its cruel, clinical, uncaring and selfish. Check out there prison system. It doesn’t want to understand or seems it doesn’t! Yes, it’s the richest and technologically advanced nation on earth but there is something within the American psychic which I’ve found colder than Europeans, Africans and Asians. They seem cut off from the rest of us, (is it their media or education one thinks) they seem to look at us like an impatient Father to a problem son or daughter. But I do not forget that America is by far the biggest donor of aid and help to the world and good causes. Its this lack of this joined up engagement which causes problems for America and obvious jealously and bitterness from elsewhere. Just like in any relationship – like a marriage you can shower your partner with gifts for a year and a day but insult them or intimidate them just for one day and all the gifts will be quickly forgotten. This is why America is loved and hated with the same level of passion all over the world.
I think the trouble with America today is everything is black and white, no shades of grey, no realisation that in the REAL world situations are usually in the grey area.
If anything these “likely” lads from the Midlands showed grit and strength of character, which honours them and their families.
1. Yes, I do believe there is a War going on but it is unlike almost any before it and the enemy is the enemy of a free society. This is the very society, which provides a blanket of comfort and protection that you and I enjoy now. This free society, in case you didn’t know, was FOUGHT for just a little while ago. And yes again, different rules apply in war.
2. Depends what you call torture. My guess is it’s rarely as bad as you think or as gentle as I might. But were BOTH guessing right? Of course it depends on who’s dishing it out too, if I was going to be held captive for a while I think I’d take the Gitmo Leisure Resort any day over the Al Quaeda or Taliban equivalents, just ask Ken Bigley et al.
And here comes the ticking timebomb scenario that you so cleverly predicted and love to make light of. Tell that to the victims of 7/7 where’s the movie about the guys who committed that atrocity? But you tell me, let me present you with a real possibility. There are people planning the next 7/7 NOW, what would you do? You’re in the services charged with protecting innocent citizens of the UK, but you’re confronted with hard facts, KNOWING the problem is real (You found the semtex and the timing devices). Would you give Mr Terrorist, a stern taking to for a few hours to find out which tube the bomb is on or would you protect his civil rights first and let dozens of people die. I DON’T know what I’d do, do you?
3. Yep! But not the mean nasty torture you’re worried about, just the ‘lets shout at them a bit’ because they just sent a text message to warn the guy they made the bus bomb with an hour ago, and we’d really like to know where it is, if that’s alright.
4. No but the fact that they were IN Afghanistan, in a War zone, 4 moths AFTER the war started, just might have given me a clue.
You miss the point, perhaps I misrepresented the treatment, and perhaps the movie did too but you don’t even begin to question it.
But you tell me, let me present you with a real possibility
Surely you mean 'fanciful notion'? You cannot defend actual events with hypothetical situations, Robert1234. Many rules may have changed, but this isn't one of them.
Less than three months later, internal US administration memos confirmed that the treatment described by the three men corresponded exactly to official Pentagon policy.
Oh gosh just what we need, when people are getting blown to pieces, for real, in our own neighbourhood, another intellectual university professor feeding us this crap. Oh YES THISguy IS the answer to all our problems, I can’t wait to hear more!
And THIS just tops it all off so well.
quote:
And you seem to blissfully unaware that torture provokes further terrorism.
That’s your real point isn’t it mate. Where’d you get this crackpot theory from then Professor Who?
We the nasty west are ALL to blame. I mean we torture WHOLE societies just by being us! We MAKE them eat McDonalds and work in Nike shoe factories, we terrible, repressive, colonising imperialists!!! How about we providers of freedom prepared to stand up for what we believe in and the beliefs and rights of others who DON'T!
