Ah, a JP essay, normal service is resumed.

catullus? isn't that a maths thing?

quote:

Originally posted by wiseblood:
Oh dear. As much as I like the odd Camper Van Beethoven track, I can't see how this vast claim can be made for them. They were a quirky college rock band, hardly a new thing. They were formed in 1983, so that was after Violent Femmes, The Wipers, Sonic Youth, X, The Replacements, Swans, Husker Du, Pere Ubu, Theoretical Girls, Black Flag, REM, The Dream Syndicate, Pylon, Teenage Jesus & the Jerks, Circle Jerks, etc etc. The whole US alt scene had roots in all prior movements, from Stooges/MC5 garage rock, to punk, to post punk, to something like No Wave. Husker Du from Zen Arcade onwards deserve a lot of credit for emphasising melody/songwriting, their cover of Eight Miles High key, as well as records by Embrace and Rites of Spring.

<snip>

and that then goes onto bands like Melvins, Dinosaur Jr, Mudhoney, Pussy Galore etc into the 1990s. CVB were there, but I don't see them deserving to be singled out as a primary influence, or one of thse bands who deserve to be singled out. Their quirky sound recalled The Feelies and Jonathan Richman, so why not give them the credit? Zappa? Roky Erikson? Sweeping stuff, so thumbs down, if you dig that debate?????

I understand your points and they are very well put, unlike CTs.

I wasn't intending to claim that CVB suddenly appeared and produced a groundbreaking, unheard of before style of music because as anyone with any interest in music knows that bands from previous eras influence trends in future generations.
There's a muddiness in defining any genre, so you could say that the MC5 were 'Punk' a decade before the term was used to describe the movement in the UK, especially considering how influential MC5 were on the movement that followed.
Thing is though, when does a band fall into the category of 'Alt. Rock' as opposed to 'Post-Punk' or any other genre? I was using the term 'Alt. Rock' as a description of bands that formed in the wake of the Punk and Post-Punk movements who took on board a much more diverse range of influences and incorporated styles of music in their own that hadn't really been used before. Hence, The Clash for example, could technically be classed as an 'Alt. Rock' band because of their use of different styles, but, because they actually formed during the Punk era they fall into the category of Punk and not any other.
Some of the bands you name, although I would agree are considered part of the 'Alt. Rock' genre were actually formed during an earlier time period and would fall under such terms as Post-Punk, New Wave and Industrial.
It depends on what you believe the term 'Alt. Rock' to mean, because yes, all those bands made what could be described as 'Alternative Rock' music but personally I believe the term to centre very much around the quirkiness that you describe CVB as displaying.
Alt. Rock is a quirky amalgamation of styles and not just a rebellious reaction to other previous genres, imo anyway.

I particularly liked the one they did with nirvana and i kicked myself for missing the metal one. Can any one fill me in on which bands it featured. Also does it annoy any one else about the thing with doc martins using dead rock stars like kurt cobain and sid vicious to promote its shoes? I mean the whole reason kurt cobain killed himself was becasue he despaired at how commercialised the music he loved had become, I mean honestly the ad execs at doc martins never listened to rape me or radio freindly unit shifter?

Cobain was a bit confused though, wasn't he? Signed up to a major label he became a rock n roll cliche and doing things like playing MTV gigs and letting the record company bring Scott Litt in to make Albini's recordings more palatable. Let's remind ourselves that Greg Sage turned him down and that Nirvana were really the end of a US scene that had been around since the late 70s. KC didn't quite have the guts to release a Metal Machine Music, but let's not kid ourselves Nirvana were anything like The Wipers, Godspeed You Black Emperor, Fugazi, or Nation of Ulysses

I suppose, but his death was a tragic loss. I think that we were just starting to see what Kurt could really do and who knows what he would have gone on to.

quote:

Originally posted by Cloud Strife:
i kicked myself for missing the metal one. Can any one fill me in on which bands it featured?

Big sections about Black Sabbath, Judas Priest and Metallica. Dissed hair metal outright. Not a particularly great show in that it didn't mention AC/DC even in passing, and seeing how I was into them along with the Scorpions, Dio and Motley Crue when I was a nipper it didn't really bring back any "great" memories.

quote:

Originally posted by CousinTeresa:

quote:

Originally posted by Cloud Strife:
i kicked myself for missing the metal one. Can any one fill me in on which bands it featured?

Big sections about Black Sabbath, Judas Priest and Metallica. Dissed hair metal outright. Not a particularly great show in that it didn't mention AC/DC even in passing, and seeing how I was into them along with the Scorpions, Dio and Motley Crue when I was a nipper it didn't really bring back any "great" memories.

Further to this, in covering Metallica it only focussed on the 'black album,' which kind of was a measure of the whole series for me.

quote:

Originally posted by CousinTeresa:

quote:

Originally posted by Vanilla Ice:
didn't bother watching last night.

I'm guessing a journo spouted off "and then Kurt came along, and it was like-.....wow. he wiped the slate clean".

Actually, they interviewed Prince Charles about how Kurt Cobain had been responsible for the rise of potato blight in the Outer Hebrides in 1992, and the way in which the B-side to "Heart-Shaped Box" had influenced Camilla Parker-Bowles to experiment with injecting bicarbonate of soda into her left ankle in an attempt to reduce Zimbabwean inflation rates. Then we saw Krist Novoselic and the drummer out of Black Flag get infected with rabies and crushed under a huge sculpture of Karnkel the god of the hedgehogs. You missed a good one.

Drummer of Black Flag? Since when was Henry Rollins the Drummer... ??????????????

quote:

Originally posted by Vanilla Ice:
compiling the clichés so far-

"and then, he came along, and it was like, wow..."

"when x came along, that was it. the rulebook was torn up and thrown out the window..."

"and then I went to see x, and I was blown away...."

Haha, it makes a great drinking game! However, I don't think I heard the Holy Grail of cliches - 'zeitgeist'. And if combined with 'tapped into the', and followed by shots of miserable youths or a bunch of coal miners marching somewhere, you've really hit the jackpot.

quote:

Originally posted by MissVirtue:

quote:

Originally posted by CousinTeresa:
Actually, they interviewed Prince Charles about how Kurt Cobain had been responsible for the rise of potato blight in the Outer Hebrides in 1992, and the way in which the B-side to "Heart-Shaped Box" had influenced Camilla Parker-Bowles to experiment with injecting bicarbonate of soda into her left ankle in an attempt to reduce Zimbabwean inflation rates. Then we saw Krist Novoselic and the drummer out of Black Flag get infected with rabies and crushed under a huge sculpture of Karnkel the god of the hedgehogs. You missed a good one.

Drummer of Black Flag? Since when was Henry Rollins the Drummer... ??????????????

Yeah and while we're at it 'Cousin Teresa', if that is is your real name, everyone knows Cobain had nothing to do with that potato crisis. So get your facts right in future!

quote:

Originally posted by sir juke:
However, I don't think I heard the Holy Grail of cliches - 'zeitgeist'.

I'm sure I caught the odd 'zeitgeist' in there. I think the winner is this particular series though was 'iconic'. Jeez, they threw that one around with some abandon... usually to describe some clearly very non-iconic stuff much like Alanis Morrisette used 'ironic' about some clearly very non-ironic stuff.

quote:

Originally posted by sir juke:

quote:

Originally posted by Vanilla Ice:
compiling the clichés so far-

"and then, he came along, and it was like, wow..."

"when x came along, that was it. the rulebook was torn up and thrown out the window..."

"and then I went to see x, and I was blown away...."

Haha, it makes a great drinking game! However, I don't think I heard the Holy Grail of cliches - 'zeitgeist'. And if combined with 'tapped into the', and followed by shots of miserable youths or a bunch of coal miners marching somewhere, you've really hit the jackpot.

and shots of bin bags piling up in some dustmen strike, winter of discontent, labour's not working.........

I didn't know there were people in the world who didn't like Charles Shaar Murray. I think I learnt to read by reading him.

uh? what school did you go to?

was your P.E. teacher Henry Rollins?

I like Charles Shaar Murray but this series misfired badly. I preferred the previous (and slightly similar) Dancing In The Streets .

I was watching Howard Goodall's 20th century greats episode on the Beatles-

now THAT'S what I call a worthwhile music retrospective-

someone who REALLY knows about music talking about
a band.