olivers , im with you here mate , i was being ironic , as you and i both know farmers deep plough to 18 inches once in a while and this is when to get excited at the prospect of interesting goods showing up not the usual nails , lumps of lead and the odd 1920 penny . it seems the infomation we as detectorists accumilate isnt welcommed by the so called professionals , i would have hoped all info regardless of where it comes from would be welcommed but it seems were assumed to have criminal tendencys due to a choice of hobby , its a shame detectorists cant be embraced as a source of info

Still no answer to my question, why put the taxpayer to the expense of paying treasure rewards to people who are going to hand the items in anyway?

Seems pointless handing out hundreds of thousands of pounds that could surely be better spent elsewhere. Like on financing the Portable Antiquities Scheme for instance.

quote:

Originally posted by izzzzythedog:
It's a shame detectorists cant be embraced as a source of info

The information gathered on the PAS database, is already widely used as a source of information.

quote:

Originally posted by izzzzythedog:
it seems the infomation we as detectorists accumilate isnt welcommed by the so called professionals , i would have hoped all info regardless of where it comes from would be welcommed but it seems were assumed to have criminal tendencys due to a choice of hobby , its a shame detectorists cant be embraced as a source of info

This information is used by most archaeologists I know, when it is available.

OK. So what about land that hasn't been ploughed?

Or are you going to try and kid me that even illegal detectorists have sufficient conscience not to do this?

quote:

Originally posted by izzzzythedog:
it amazes me people here think they have the first clue about everything , lets look at a few facts brought up , unstratified finds have no historical context on an area from an archilogical point of view

Sorry Izzy, speaking as someone who does have a clue, I can tell you that the distribution of finds, regardless of whether they are stratified or not, can tell archaeologists a lot about a site. That is why we fieldwalk, and why we try and encourage detectorists to record their findspots accurately.

quote:

a metal detector can see down a good 8 inches assuming its not minerlised with iron so to shout its plunder of history is both rediculas and simply downright wrong

Ah, that old chestnut....
Putting aside the fact, mentioned above, that finds from the ploughsoil are significant, there are a number of problems with your argument.

The depth argument is an interesting one. True, 8" is about right, but on a big object or a hoard, detectors will give you a signal at much greater depth. Don't believe me? Look at any description of a complete hoard recovered by a detectorist from a ploughed field, and you will get a description of them digging well below 8". You also have to admit that not all fields that get detected are ploughed fields - plenty goes on in pasture and on beaches and foreshores. Add to this increasingly sophisticated detectors ('hoard hunters' anyone?) that promise signals at much greater depth than 8", and your argument begins to fall apart.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not arguing that most detectorists are motivated by financial concerns, but let's at least admit that detectorists remove historical artefacts from their contexts, both stratified and unstratified, and as a result, historical information is lost if it is not recorded. I have worked with enough over the years to have seen pretty much the whole spectrum , and know that many have a serious interest in the historical context of coins. Having said that, whenever the thorny issue of treasure and rewards rears its ugly head, there are always posts such as yours. Unfortunately, it is an emotive issue on both sides. Personally, I wouldn't ban detecting, although I would favour a system of licencing, but that is another issue, probably best dealt with on another occasion.



, next everyone who has a metal detector is in it for the money, do you people have any idea of the costs involved ? a reasonable detector is 500 quid , batteries last all of 2 days , headphones cost a fortune as they need to be waterproof , transport cost and research cost are beyond belief , a small minority is in it for the money ? bull , there is no money for mr average or even mr minority and no-one does this for the money at all , these lads sold off items , so what ? a roman grot or a clipped lizzie the first penny has no hisorical president and isnt worth much either way , people here assume they have sold the crown jewels when in reality its near rubbish with no achiological context at all , as for the monies recieved , ill bet every one of you here who screams its for the money its for the money if you found a bag with 50 grand in it and came to claim the same in 6 months after handing it in ( like most would anyway )not a single person would complain when given 500 quid for their trouble even when no-one claimed it and your the rightfull owner now ! musuems lose more items each year than these guys will get to sell in a lifetime , check out prices on ebay for these types of items then explain the plunder[/QUOTE]

quote:

Originally posted by Fil2:
OK. So what about land that hasn't been ploughed?

Or are you going to try and kid me that even illegal detectorists have sufficient conscience not to do this?

the whole of the uk has disturbed soils , un ploughed land normally means parks , as a rule we arnt allowed to go onto parks due to the uncareing thoughtless actions of some people not replacing the sods of earth , no respectable detectorist would do this , its simply normal practice to replace , we always hunt out the park-keep or phone the council ( for a quick argument on ownership normally ) , other unploughed lands would be marsh/moors/bogs and they as a rule arnt worth the trouble so get ignored , we require human occupation so aim for high concentrations or zone in on areas of interest

illegal detectorists ? if by this you mean criminals then yes , theres a distinct difference between someone whos responsible and someone who isnt , a knife is just a knife for say cutting bread , are all people the same if they use a knife be it for cutting bread or stabbing someone ? the analagy stands as extreme but the same as detectorists endure , there are no illegal detectorists only criminals then detectorists

Less than half of all agricultural land is ploughed, the rest is grassland used for grazing and together they account for 36% of the UK land mass. Seems there's plenty of undisturbed land out there besides parks and wetlnds.

quote:

Originally posted by izzzzythedog:
Illegal detectorists ? if by this you mean criminals then yes , theres a distinct difference between someone who's responsible and someone who isn't

I know this, and you know it.

For some reason though, responsible detectorists
are always expected to explain the actions, and
accept responsibility for what the others do.

quote:

Originally posted by Fil2:
Less than half of all agricultural land is ploughed, the rest is grassland used for grazing and together they account for 36% of the UK land mass. Seems there's plenty of undisturbed land out there besides parks and wetlnds.

Depends what area of the country you are talking about. These figures cannot be applied to everywhere. Detectorists cant go over every piece of land in all their lifetimes.Moorland and highland areas may be the undisturbed land you are talking about and is not of interest to most detectorists.
Do you think detectorists are filling their pockets with national treasures every time they go out into a field? 9 times out of 10 and after many hours walking they will go home with nothing to show for their efforts.They do it because its an escape,therapy out in the fresh air and countryside,their interest in archaeology/history and the hope that they may find something that will get them in the news,something they can touch that our ancestors touched.
Fishermen can spend thousands on tackle,sit there for days and come home with nothing. They enjoy the escape and chance to dream just like detectorists.

Hi all.

Do you not think we have flogged this enough now?

My ranting and raving was over a few emails ago.

I know it is pot calling kettle black but perhaps we need to agree to disagree?

I think one thing we must all believe is that more money needs to be pumped into archaeology so that archaeologists and detectorists can work together without any animosity.

Come on National Lottery, pump in some money instead of wasting it on absolute rubbish projects too numerous to mention.

On my soapbox again!

quote:

Originally posted by SIMONKG:
Hi all.

Do you not think we have flogged this enough now?

My ranting and raving was over a few emails ago.

I know it is pot calling kettle black but perhaps we need to agree to disagree?

I think one thing we must all believe is that more money needs to be pumped into archaeology so that archaeologists and detectorists can work together without any animosity.

Come on National Lottery, pump in some money instead of wasting it on absolute rubbish projects too numerous to mention.

On my soapbox again!

Yes, start with abandoning the London olympics and stop the public cash being pumped into it. Just imagine what the money could be better spent on.Dont get me going again!...

Agreed.

I think this is a disaster waiting to happen.

Another Millenium Dome I think!

just nudging the blinkers , needs to be done before i cant do a hobby anymore due to persicusions

id like to see the lottery be used to fund something with an expectation of a return of funds , be nice to see the money used to make more money to forfill even more so called good causes , seems town centres are filling up with recently installed and recently vandilised ``art` work

quote:

Originally posted by SIMONKG:
Hi all.

Do you not think we have flogged this enough now?

My ranting and raving was over a few emails ago.

I know it is pot calling kettle black but perhaps we need to agree to disagree?

I think one thing we must all believe is that more money needs to be pumped into archaeology so that archaeologists and detectorists can work together without any animosity.

Come on National Lottery, pump in some money instead of wasting it on absolute rubbish projects too numerous to mention.

On my soapbox again!

The entire metal detectorist vs. PAS debate aside, as a long time and HUGE fan of TT, this rates as one of the most pointless programs to date! I was left hanging with a feeling of "so what", wondering about the finds themselves and their historical content rather than the political arguments and posturing on both sides.
The initial build up by Tony ('this program was 2 years in the making!! and all the hype) quickly fizzled out into a sitting-on-the-fence attitude by our beloved presenter, leaving me with an uncharacteristic so-what attitude when it was done.

I watch TT to learn about history and to be entertained, in that order. This episode did neither.

If you hear TR's soapbox rantings on radio,or anywhere else people give him an ear,he's certainly not astride any fence at all.
It's a well known fact,he's against hobby related metal detecting,whether you record with PAS,or not.
Perhaps he's got his own agenda,
mind you I couldn't care less what he thinks.
Everyone is entitled to an opinion.

quote:

Originally posted by Fil2:
Less than half of all agricultural land is ploughed, the rest is grassland used for grazing and together they account for 36% of the UK land mass. Seems there's plenty of undisturbed land out there besides parks and wetlnds.

Pretty well all agricultural land has been ploughed. If a patch of ground was flat enough and big enough to turn a team of horses or a tractor around in, it will have been ploughed at some point.
You only have to go back sixty odd years to WW2. The War Ag Dept told farmers to plough up their grassland to grow potatoes. The Dept even supplied tractors and ploughs big enough to bury fern so vast areas of open hill could be planted.

A broad sweeping statement.

I doubt "pretty well all" agricultural land was suitable for ploughing. Certainly not all was ploughed up during WW2. You only have to look at the surviving evidence of medieval ploughing and the survival of Roman and ancient ruins close to the surface to realise that.

I was left with the overwhelming feeling that neither the detectorists nor the archeologists trusted each other, but they both seemed to respect and trust Time Team. Clearly it would be preferable for both sides to get along and co-operate. Please forgive a newbie if this has been suggested before (I haven't seen it), but if Time Team did one of their three-day digs, looking mainly where the detectorists believe there is most to find, this would surely satisfy both camps.

I also like SIMONKG's idea of trying to persuade the Lottery Commission to fund a bigger investigation - surely the cost would be small beer to them?