A theme seems to have run through certain programmes in the last series of 'Time Team' beginning with the excavation of the Keeill on the Isle of Man through the site near Amlwch and continued to 'Britain's Drown World'. All seem to ignore or play limited attention to other linguistic groups living in Britian.
In relation to the Keeill is this the same place name element as 'Kil' in Scotland or Ireland we were not told. After a grabbled version of the changes in language on the island there was no mention of Manx nor that the language was not written down until the 17th century and then transcribed by Welsh speakers. Instead the Vikings were mentioned much safer territory for the English viewers.How did the Ogham inscription fit in with others found on the island who knows. Of course the inscription was 'Irish' not Manx ?
We move to Y Werthyr near Amlwch Anglesey no mention here that the Romans referred to the island as Mona and that the modern named is Ynys Mon, please forgive the lack of the accent or 'To bach', a site truely 'Ingulf-ed' in a tide of Englishness. Was the site Iron Age or Roman or from the Dark Ages or do any of these terms have any meaning if the people living there still speak a language very much akin to the local pre Roman invasion Celtic dialect whose language absorbed numerous Latin words particularly relating to items of material culture and whose ancestors remained where they had always been. No visit to the Roman Fort at Holyhead to see the succession of churches within the fort no visit to Segontium 'Caerseint' with its church dedicated to Peblig a reputed son the Macsen Wledig sorry Maximus. These matters would not be of interest to English viewers. Finally 'Britain's Drown Landscape' at the end of which Tony and Francis Pryor pontificate that we have no memory of the major flood events in pre-history. Excuse me the legend of 'Lyonese' springs instantly to mind but what of 'Cantref Gwaelod' in Cardigan Bay or 'Cae Arainrhod' off the coast of Anglesey or the rather strange tale of 'Yr Afianc'. But of course these are not English tales so they do not exist.
Multi-cultural Britain is not the product of Post-War immigration it was always there.
Originally posted by matholwch: to English viewers. Finally 'Britain's Drown Landscape' at the end of which Tony and Francis Pryor pontificate that we have no memory of the major flood events in pre-history. Excuse me the legend of 'Lyonese' springs instantly to mind but what of 'Cantref Gwaelod' in Cardigan Bay or 'Cae Arainrhod' off the coast of Anglesey or the rather strange tale of 'Yr Afianc'. But of course these are not English tales so they do not exist.
Multi-cultural Britain is not the product of Post-War immigration it was always there.
Yes I rather thought that too. Oh well, they only have a limited time onscreen I guess...
Originally posted by matholwch: A theme seems to have run through certain programmes in the last series of 'Time Team' beginning with the excavation of the Keeill on the Isle of Man through the site near Amlwch and continued to 'Britain's Drown World'. All seem to ignore or play limited attention to other linguistic groups living in Britian.
..got interupted by grandchild - Arthur says...this clash of racial characteristics and cultures may have accounted too for the extraordinary range of British genius..... so much diversity among neighbours was a constant stimulus and education.. England was fortunate that the invasions which gave her so mixed and challenging an ancestry were separated by long periods which enabled each new influence to be digested and saved the island from anarchy.
He refers to Lyonesse and Atlantis.
Now Arthur has been derided -he is very politicaly incorrect because he was patriotic (most people writing after the war were for some strange reason!) but I was given one of his books when I was 12 and it gave me a very good idea of the mixture of the British isles - and one presumes that some of these invaders did get as far as Wales and Scotland and the fact that we made one nation.
Having survived the best of the Lufwaffe's attempts to kill me off as a baby I grew up believing that unity both in this country and with Europe was our best chance of survival in a modern world.
Why is the 'intelligentsia' so determined to emphasise divisions?
Language varies from area to area -my mother from essex used names for flowers and animals that living in Hampshire we didn't hear anywhere else. My neighbour spoke the Wiltshire language which was unimntelligible. Hampshire has words not heard elsewhere. What does this prove? Are we all genetically different.
For heaven's sake lets be one nation or we die for we are too small to survive in fragments.
"Why is the 'intelligentsia' so determined to emphasise divisions?
For heaven's sake lets be one nation or we die for we are too small to survive in fragments."
Ann, I could not agree with you more. It saddens me considerably to hear and read people emphasising their "nationality" - and various media personalities do not help either. Over the last 1000 years or so we gradually moved together (either by force or consent) until we became a truly "Great" nation. Now we seem intent just on wrecking it all. Only last week we were down in the South West and saw how Cornwall and now Devon are flying "their own" flags. Why, for goodness sake? What does it all achieve? I would only ever have thought of flying the Union Flag but I must admit that when I see all those other flags it makes me consider buying an English one - but then that makes me as bad as them! Some politicians have a lot to answer for.
Sorry Dave g B you have just posted the typical inner M25,Jon Gaunt/Daily Mail viewpoint on the rest of us. Buy an English flag and show your pride in your country ,rather than as a protest against the rest of us (who appear to be bad for not being you) being proud of where we come from.
Originally posted by Dave g B: Only last week we were down in the South West and saw how Cornwall and now Devon are flying "their own" flags. Why, for goodness sake?
No. no. no Owain. You have got it wrong. Of course you are proud of being Welsh, and the Cornish of being cornish and long may it be.
Yes, I fly the English flag at times when England is celebrating something i.e. St. George's Day
but I can remember when Europe was fragmented and how easy it was/is for power crazy maniacs to get in control. It is by being united yet celebrating our differences that strength lies and God knows I for one do not wish to be under American dominance and if we fragment that is where we shall be.
We are a diverse collection but I glory in the characteristics of the Welsh, Irish, Scots (married to one) Cornish etc and it is together that we make a formidable country.
Its not Daily Mail/M25/John Gaunt influence its war stricken Europe, concentration camps, dictators that form my opinions - look what happened to Yugoslavia when ethnic differences were stressed.
The irony here is that the harder a dominant culture/religion/language tries to suppress a minority one within the same nation, the more trouble it stores up for itself. Attempts to deny expression of minority feeling is far more likely to lead to demands for independence, break-away states and/or outbreaks of violence than tolerance.
If the English stopped trying to tell the Welsh what to think and feel, then I suspect the Welsh would be rather happier to be British.
Originally posted by Dave g B: Only last week we were down in the South West and saw how Cornwall and now Devon are flying "their own" flags. Why, for goodness sake?
Mind you although there are no death camps for Englishmen, there are plenty of caravan parks!!!!!
on a more serious point though, you are right, Time Team have approached Welsh sites from a very much English perspective - can't remember one where they bothered with a welsh historian or archaeologist. somewhat in contrast to an excellent programme I saw on BBC2 Wales about Glyndwr which used plenty of experts from both perspectives and managed to put him in context excellently. Perhaps some more intelligent programme making is called for.
P.S. I find the whole one nation thing a bit false, to be honest. It is no good saying Wiltshire/Hampshire/Cornsih folk are different too. In none of those areas do the inhabitants have a sense of national identity that is not English. The Welsh and Scots have seperate cultures, languages and histories. Why should they not be allowed to explore these without reference to some greater Britishness which was merely a cover for their subjugation and exploitation?
I was not advocating one nation in that all the individual ethnic histories and pride be wiped out and placed under one totalitarian blanket
and welsh history is welsh history and to be taught, gloried in and explored
but
when I was a baby I experienced how pride of race and ethinic cleansing murdered millions and brough untold misery to more millions
when I was a young woman I saw a close knit community torn apart by political agitators causing a strike - I saw young girls terrified, families broken apart for ever and sheer hatred written on mens faces -men I had been to school with, romanced, parents whose homes I had stayed in turn against their friends.
in middle age I saw the barbarity of Yugoslavia, knowing something of its previous history froma yugoslav refugee from Tito
I just do not wish to see nationality carried to extreme cause such hatred in these islands.
Yes let us have true history explored - it was the rewriting of history that the Nazis used so let us have history fully and properly researched and shown revealing the good the bad and the ugly on all sides. It is truth that matters
Originally posted by matholwch: Finally 'Britain's Drown Landscape' at the end of which Tony and Francis Pryor pontificate that we have no memory of the major flood events in pre-history. Excuse me the legend of 'Lyonese' springs instantly to mind but what of 'Cantref Gwaelod' in Cardigan Bay or 'Cae Arainrhod' off the coast of Anglesey or the rather strange tale of 'Yr Afianc'. But of course these are not English tales so they do not exist.
Sorry I know its only a minor point, but neither Lyonesse or 'Cantref Gwaelod' purport to be prehistoric tales.
when I was a baby I experienced how pride of race and ethnic cleansing murdered millions and
That was a powerful majority culture trying to wipe out vulnerable minorities. Are you saying that if only the Jews had stopped being so distinctive and blended into whatever culture they found themselves in, they would have been spared pogroms and the gas chambers? Well yes. And some of them did. But if all had done so, an ancient culture would have been lost.
Think of it like biology. We tend nowadays to breed crops and animals for certain traits useful to us, with the danger that genetic variety is lost. Yet that genetic variety may hold the key to resistance to diseases in the future. Variety is helpful to preserve.
In my own field I have to watch high streets up and down the land turning into clones of each other, so you can scarcely tell where you are. It's not only boring. It's not only losing the historic character of place. It's wiping out a body of ideas for future architects to draw on.
Originally posted by Owain G: Sorry Dave g B you have just posted the typical inner M25,Jon Gaunt/Daily Mail viewpoint on the rest of us. Buy an English flag and show your pride in your country ,rather than as a protest against the rest of us (who appear to be bad for not being you) being proud of where we come from.
Owen, firstly I cannot stand the Daily Moan and I live not all that far from Wales which I visit regularly. Secondly I am proud of my country - the United Kingdom.
AJ. I do not understand this "identity" you mention. Does it mean that I should design a flag for my street so that my neighbours can show their identity is different from the ones round the corner?
I thought that programmes such as "Face of Britain" and various books published recently ( and even the NME response) have shown that we are a mongrel race living crowded on a small island just off a large and possible dominant continent. At the time of the Union, every ancestor I have managed to trace was living within 5 miles of my present home and it is likely that in the 1500's my father's family were farming just 8 miles away. According to the "Faces of Britain" programme that puts them firmly in the English camp. The chances are that further back they would have been Mercian. Further still and perhaps Cornovii or Brigantes (or even Friesian? feel a bit cowed about that, though.) Even further back we could have come from the Basque or Balkan Refuges. So which identity do I chose? For all that, I was born British. Perhaps in time my grand-children's families will consider themselves Europeans.
I am more than happy for us all to enjoy our regional variations but why cannot we all celebrate being British instead of having to mark out that we are "really" English/Welsh/Scottish? I notice that only this morning it is being suggested that we have a British National Day. Excellent idea.
I love history and find our joint heritages fascinating. But I live in the 21st Century and look forward. I have no wish to retreat to the 18th.
Originally posted by Dave g B: [I thought that programmes such as "Face of Britain" and various books published recently ( and even the NME response) have shown that we are a mongrel race living crowded on a small island just off a large and possible dominant continent. At the time of the Union, every ancestor I have managed to trace was living within 5 miles of my present home and it is likely that in the 1500's my father's family were farming just 8 miles away. According to the "Faces of Britain" programme that puts them firmly in the English camp. The chances are that further back they would have been Mercian. Further still and perhaps Cornovii or Brigantes (or even Friesian? feel a bit cowed about that, though.) Even further back we could have come from the Basque or Balkan Refuges. So which identity do I chose? For all that, I was born British. Perhaps in time my grand-children's families will consider themselves Europeans.
I am more than happy for us all to enjoy our regional variations but why cannot we all celebrate being British instead of having to mark out that we are "really" English/Welsh/Scottish? I notice that only this morning it is being suggested that we have a British National Day. Excellent idea.
I love history and find our joint heritages fascinating. But I live in the 21st Century and look forward. I have no wish to retreat to the 18th.
Dave,
your position is one entirely consistent with being English. The English are, and have always been, the dominant partners in the Union. No one has conquered them, supressed them, ethnically cleansed them, taken their lands away and given them to foreign landlords, settled thier lands with immigrants and supressed everything about their language and culture which made them different to make them conform to the union. If they had then i suspect that your position may differ slightly. What if the ancestors you researched had been turned out of their farms by a Welsh landlord, or been forced to learn in Welsh, or been persecuted for being first language English? How would you feel if the economic resources of your country had historically been exploited for the benefit of a few rich Welshmen? What if your country was ruled etirely by dictat by a parliament in Cardiff for which you voted, but which allowed you little or no real control over what happened in your own country? And how proud would you be now
