quote:

Originally posted by Ann W.:

quote:

Why do people have to use the term 'nationalists' every time a Welsh person wants to stick up for his or her nation?

I swore I would not post again but this begs the question

why do people use the term imperialist, jingoist, BNP member, everytime an English person wants to stick up for his or her nation?

Blame a London based media and the English Broadcasting Corporation for that one.It really doesn't bother anyone else here.
Unless those involved really are members of organised fascist groups that is.

Owain G , very interesting what you say. Yes, that's very boring about the patronising businessmen, but there's probably just as many who aren't like that. I hope so.
Anyway, responding as an Englishnan, you're dead right about the inferiority-complex (and you could chuck in a large slice of schizophrenia as well). Not suprising really, seeing as how we've been told since childhood that English = militaristic, aggressive, greedy, bullying patronising ******s, who stamp all over other peoples and races and cultures in order to exploit them and assert their own superiority. Bad, all bad. Feel bad. Feel guilty. Keep your head down. Yeah you were good in 1940 but what about the Irish potato famine? You're digusting and evil, now bend over etc., etc. ( actually, you could bung in a hefty dose of paranoia into the mix, too).
Yes, the sins of the fathers have certainly been visited on the sons. Actually, not so much visited as continually rammed down our throats. It's little wonder that on this side of the Severn we feel a bit confused about any expression of Englishness. So we veer uncertainly from a sort of chastened, cowering, middle-class apologetic wriggle to a shaved-union-jacked-tattooed-headed drunken fight with foreigners at some mindless sporting event to a tepid, two-cheers approach to multi-culturism - (though we're not so sure now that that's quite such the good thing we thought it was).
We don't celebrate the English history and culture of this country so much as beat ourselves up about it.
Actually, what we need is a bit of TLC, not endless thrashings from those who want to settle such old scores. It'd be dead handy if those who want to fight old battles and stir up ancient enmities could remind themselves that it's history and it wasn't my fault because I wasn't there.

quote:

English being the ones suffering with the inferiority complex.It would be good to see an English view here.

I'm happy to be English. I don't feel any need to wave flags though. I just feel lucky. I've had a lifetime love affair with the English language. And that language has become the lingua franca of the world. Communication is so easy for me. There is a lot more to it than that of course. I could wax lyrical about the English countryside and vernacular architecture and rose gardens and so on. But "lucky me" pretty well sums it up.

quote:

it wasn't my fault because I wasn't there

We are not responsible for the past. But we are responsible for the way in which history is presented. Do we aim to be honest? Or do we tread carefully to avoid upsetting this nation or that? Since the English are in the huge majority, broadcasters may be more inclined to pander to their sensibilities than those of the Celtic fringe. So the original poster was making a reasonable point.

But how was it greeted? Visions of Balkanisation seem something of an over-reaction. If English guilt cannot bear to be touched and screams at the sound of a Welsh voice, there is no hope for the Union.

I personally don't imagine that TT deliberately set out to present and exclusively English view, but they are an English bunch (mainly). I noticed Francis Pryor struggling a bit on one programme in Scotland. I can't remember the particular gaffe, but someone may do.

quote:

But how was it greeted? Visions of Balkanisation seem something of an over-reaction. If English guilt cannot bear to be touched and screams at the sound of a Welsh voice, there is no hope for the Union.

No guilt whatsoever, what's done is done and cannot be undone - as the English playwright said. Visions of Balkanisation were not prophesied for the British isles

I was merely trying to point out that I have had hands on, and at a distance experience, of communities that lived happily together for generations going down the road of past hatreds and divisions and tearing each other apart with long lasting and horrendous results.


I tuned into the Time Team for historical truth to be discussed. I have always been interested in Welsh history but have been unable to locate much to read on the subject, unlike the Scots.

I had intended to explore, but think I might go to France - get a very warm welcome there with no hang ups -and the wine is better.

quote:

Originally posted by Ann W.:
I have always been interested in Welsh history but have been unable to locate much to read on the subject, unlike the Scots.

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Clark, Stuart and Morgan, P T. 'Religion and magic in Elizabethan Wales: Robert Holland's Dialogue on Witchcraft'. Journal of Ecclesiastical History, 27 (1976).

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Ann - I'm sorry if I've come down too hard on you. I do understand your concern about the dangers of nationalism and (wait for it) I actually agree with you! The question is how to help people to live happily together. My approach may seem counter-intuitive at first glance. But if you give it a chance, look at it from all angles, you may end up seeing some merit in it.

OK after a quick glance -Rebecca's Children I know I have read but where is one that tells me of the period Roman to Edward 1st (of England)

quote:

Originally posted by Ann W.:
OK after a quick glance -Rebecca's Children I know I have read but where is one that tells me of the period Roman to Edward 1st (of England)

Only half of the items I tried to cut and paste came out, Ann. I was crudely trying to make a point that there is rather a lot of written sources on the history of Wales.

Roman to Edward. Kari Maund's "The Welsh Kings" (Tempus) covers much of the period although as the title suggests, it covers the higher echelons of Medieval Welsh society. A more comprehensive study is probably that of Wendy Davies - "Wales in the Early Middle Ages" was a key part of Leicester University Press's 'Studies in the Early History of Britain' series. There are relevant chapters in a couple of works by Professor John Davies - "A History of Wales" is published by Penguin and "The Making of Wales" is available through Alan Sutton , I believe.

In terms of an archaeological overview, I would recommend "Roman and Early Medieval Wales" by Arnold and Davies (Sutton).

For the later period, R R Davies' "The Age of Conquest: Wales 1063 - 1415" is probably still difficult to beat.

I would be more than happy to point you towards anything else you may think of interest, Ann.

As I am off to the library today (before picking strawberries)will go for R.R. Davies first. You cannot say I am not trying. Last time I tried the library came up with something so boring that it was a penance to continue!

I was told by an Oxford academic a few years ago that I really ought to go on Pilgrimage to St. Davids - whether as a penance or a pleasure was not specified!

St Govans is a much more spiritual experience



....with a lovely pub and beach on the way

quote:

St Govans is a much more spiritual experience

The pub is alluring but I think the steps might finish me off!

I rather think that my first pilgrimage to Wales might be to Patricio. It also has a well.

We have a well here in W. Berks - it predates the Romans by thousands of years. Before Rome took over christians were baptised there and today -you can still find flowers and offerings.

Now -what race first worshipped there I wonder?

quote:

Patricio

A lovely spot. Last time I was there, the interior of the church was inhabited by a plague of flies which spoiled the experience somewhat, but definitely worth going there.

you have not inherited the celtic touch Steffan...

celtic saints would have gently asked the flies to leave -and of course they would have done so!

It's interesting to note that the post made by "Matholwch" who started this thread, is the only post they ever made on any Ch4 forum

quote:

Originally posted by Ann W.:
I was told by an Oxford academic a few years ago that I really ought to go on Pilgrimage to St. Davids - whether as a penance or a pleasure was not specified!

I do like Pembrokshire. If you go to that neck of the woods, you must take a boat trip around Ramsey Island. Visit Castell Henlys, and Pentre Ifan, (preferably as the sun is setting over Cardigan Bay).

quote:

Before Rome took over Christians were baptised there

That would be a very tight schedule Ann. The Apostles were fanning out far and wide in the years after the crucifixion of Jesus AD 29-36, but I doubt if they managed to get to Britain before Claudius grabbed the place in AD 43.

Some Celtic sacred springs seems to have been converted into holy wells in the Christian era. Is that what you had in mind?

Sorry -I was talking from a church historical view -should have said before the church of Rome took over completely not Rome as in Romans. But it pre-dated Rome as in Romans and was a place of worship before christianity - and yes I know that the majority of christian sites were places of worship before christianity (phew does that read correctly?)

I read somewhere that the 'legends' of people falling asleep at holy wells - and hearing the oracle is caused by low level radio activity in the water which is what makes the water 'healing'. Can't think where but it was when I was researching for a talk.

Do you archaeologists have any findings on wells?

Ah! Church of Rome. Silly me. Should have twigged. I know you are very familiar with ecclesiastical history.

Had an excellent, charismatic and very irreverent teacher when attending a course in my 40s

but

was taught school history- which was at that time Tudors and Stuarts- by an Irish Roman Catholic! He heroically struggled to be impartial but I often wonder how it coloured my thinking.