quote:

Originally posted by RonW:
Saffron, I am in full agreement with your views.
Sadly, the West ignored the invasion and oppression of Tibet when it happened(Tibet has no oil, nor has Zimbabwe). Today is too late, it would be a nuclear war, which China, with its 1.1 billion population, wrongly believes it can win.
They fail to realise that there are no winners in a nuclear war, the world dies.
What will transpire when China eventually attacks Formosa(Taiwan) is anyone's guess.It depends on whether America honours it;s treaty or not.
However, I fear nuclear war is inevitable when the religious fanatics from Iran endeavou
If so, they must be living in r to wipe Israel off the face of the earth,which they are now promising to do. Do they really believe that the Israelies, who alrady have the 'bomb' will stand idly by and let it happen? If so, they must be living on Cuckcoo island.

On this day in 1829 Under British rule, suttee (whereby a widow commits suicide by joining her husband's funeral pyre) was made illegal in India.

Ronnie Corbet is 75 today.

Ron.

Before 1951, Tibet was under a feudal serfdom characterized by the dictatorship of upper-class monks and nobles. The feudal lords who constituted only five percent of the population possessed 95 percent of the means of production. Tibet serfs were even more miserable than the black slaves in the United States before the civil war. Tibet was at that time not peaceful at all because the struggles between the slaves and their lords were very fierce.

Before 1951, there were no other religions allowed in Tibet. There were evidences that missioners were killed in Tibet in the past.

Tibet is part of China for more than 700 years


http://www.index-china.com/index-english/Tibet-s.html

Have I pressed the wrong button and tuned in to the Chinese Communist Ministry Of Propoganda?.

Some interesting birthdays this week;-

Rod Stewart 61

Joan Baez 65

Shirley Bassey 69

Stephen Hawking 64

David Bowie 59

And lastly, had Elvis Prestley survived, he would have been 71. ( I wonder if Steve Platt still lights the candles?

Ron.

On this day in 1893 The British Independent Labour Party was formed by Keir Hardie.
That was in the days of sincerity before the present right wing self interested New Labour emerged.

For some time now, I have been concerned at the absence of Ian G. Not a word for months. I hope he is OK. Has anyone heard from him?
I am on leave until the first week in Feb and depart on holiday on Monday. Should anyone know about Ian, I would appreciate a message prior to Monday.

Ron.

On this day in 1759 The British Museum opened, at Montague House, Bloomsbury, London.

And in 1797 London haberdasher James Hetherington was fined £50 for wearing his new creation, the top hat.

Magaret O'Brian, US actress, is 70 today.

Also the birthday of Faye Dunnaway, US actress who is 64.

And tomorrow is the 58th birthday of Cliff Thornburn, snooker player.

Ron.

I did post earlier -but for some reason was disconnected.
so Hi anyone who remembers me -have been out of action & for those who commiserated with me upon losing my beloved GSD -out of the blue another has arrived. He needed a home and why some people are allowed to keep animals I just do not know. Whereas the last was an aristocrat of haughty looks this is a poor neglected little peasant but we have hopes.

Now

Today in 1901 Queen Victoria's coffin was put on the train at LOndon to travel to Windsor for the funeral

Historical LInk - my godmother (died at 96) used to tell me how she stood on Gosport dockside to see the coffin brought over from the I of W and put on the train to London

Today: 1536 Mendoza founded Buenos Aires (where my father spent some of his wild oats days)
1943 -end of the Battle of Stalingrad

Today -Candlemas -or the old Celtic Cross Quarter Day (yes, we hijacked it)

If Candlemas be bright and clear
there'll be two winters in that year.
If Candlemas be dull and grey
winter will have gone away.

Our transatlantic cousins call it Groundhog Day but I believe they nicked it from Germany when it was Badger Day -but I may be corrected on that point.

Trust you are all well

Ron, we've got used to Tony B's frequent U turns. He's done so many now I don't think he knows what direction he's facing.

Phil, glad you managed to read my post before the 'Censor' struck again!. They'll be burning books next!.
I have just read in 'The China News' that the bridge between Hong Kong and Macau is now one third complete. For the unenlightened, 'Macau' is the biggest gambling and prostitution centre in the Far East.
On a historic note; When the British decided that an International Base was essential in the Far East, they considered invading Macau. However, since it was already occupied by our Allies, the Portugese, we decided to utilise the then barren rock of Houng Kong.The name meaning'The plaqce of the fragrant waters'But when the 'Boat People' were there(now gone) It was anything but fragrant.
The whole concept was a success story which the Chinese are building upon.
Last week, I had the chance to fire the Chinese'Compressor Air Rifle' It is absolutely fantastic. More like a .303 rifle than a machine working on air. Sadly, it will not be available in England, banned.
Nice to see you back Ann. I have a question to ask you regarding the C of E.

Ron.

Don't guarantee to be able to answer it Ron -but will do my best. Sometimes the C of E baffles even its most ardent members and I have always been rather a rebellious one!

But it is a church that allows individual intelligence to be engaged.

I see that in 1893 LIverpool's overhead railway, the world's first electrified overhead railway opened.

Hi Ann,
As a once member of the C of E who left because of it's 'Comedy Of Error Antics' Can you please explain the latest C of E fad, where a Vicar is no longer a Vicar but a Priest?
I have always associated Priests with the RC religion and others.

I walked over a hulk of an old sailing ship in Jamaica last week, and discovered the following inscribed on the bulkhead.
A tribute to both a horse and the ship's food. With your sea-going ancestors, I thought you might like it.

'The Sea Horse'

'Old horse, old horse, what brought you here?

You've carried me gear for many a year!

An' now wore out with sore abuse,

They salt you down for sailor's use!

They gaze on you with sad suprise,

They roll ye over and bugger y'r eyes.

They eat y'r meat and pick y'r bones,

And send the rest to Davy Jones!'

Ron.

well bearing in mind that I am not an expert Ron -the C of E being a broad church has members from both ends of the spectrum. Some say pastor, minister. Some have a vicar or rector and will use that name -all are priests because they have been ordained. However some like yourself prefer not to say priest because it has reflections of the R.C. church. The anglican church is actually catholic as the creed says 'I believe in one holy, catholic and apostolic church, but there is a difference between catholic and Roman Catholic.

A Rector has full possession of a parish with all its rights and tithes a vicar is a person used to fulfill the functions of another - one of the complaints of the reformation that men were taking possession of many parishes with their income and installing others (vicars) to do the work. Of course these days that does not exisit but some parishes have a priest whois a Rector and others a vicar these being historical titles.

If you live in rural England like myself -then you are damn lucky to get anyone tho we very happily exist with a Methodist church and a Roman Catholic Retreat Centre.

Unfortunately, the lamp of faith kept burning in rural areas for so many years now has to be cut to the bone to support the cities -but don't let me get started on that........!

I have to say that I am an Anglo Catholic and therefore quite happy to use priest but am very aware of the sensibilities of others who do not like to use the word -but words, words how they get in the way, it is what is in the heart that matters the way we express it takes many forms but no two people are alike. AS the poet Yevtushenko says ' No people are unintersesting'

Thank you for the clarity of your reply, Ann. It was quite interesting.
I live in rural Wirral outside the village of Ness. We still have a Vicar and in this area, find the term Priest totally unacceptable.
However, this also applies to the present C of E. The last straw with me was when they changed the words of 'The Lord's Prayer to a mumbo jumbo of Mickey Mouse and the beautiful words of the 23rd Psalm to an ugly scattering of pidgeon English. I only attend BMD,s now as do most.
The Vicar still calls when he is raising money for a good cause, and I always contribute, but with one eception, that's as far as it goes. The eception being- He has a soft spot for my 'Appleton's Jamaica Rum' I have had to drive hin back to the Rectory on a number of occassions!

Ron.

There are two points there Ron.

One is the sensitivity of the local church to provide a service according to the Book of Common Prayer.

This we manage to do at 8.am, on celebration at a redundant church now privately owned but still used for services 6 times a year and at a monthly sung matins which has proved quite popular (the choir being a big draw) Also one of our neighbouring churches only has BCP.

However I have to say that the biggest congregation and youngest comes to CCP service at 10.am and I think that one of the reasons is the education system of this country which has failed our youngsters

The language of is completely foreign because they no longer teach Shakespeare in many schools.
The language of former years once familiarised by a study of literature is not commonplace and so many younger people have lost part of their culture.

Actually tho' the modern translations of the bible are far more accurate -tho not as poetical or lyrical as the KIng James version the reformers didn't always get it right.
y favourite version is one with three translations side by side including a direct translation of the Greek.

There isn't anything quite like getting people into church to stimulate an interest in history either!

quote:

Originally posted by RonW:
Can you please explain the latest C of E fad, where a Vicar is no longer a Vicar but a Priest?
I have always associated Priests with the RC religion and others.

Don't want to intrude if this is a private discussion, but it was explained to me recently. Priest refers to someone who has permission to conduct the sacrements, such as communion. Before full ordination they are a Deacon. For their first year a curate is a deacon, then becomes a priest, but their job title is still curate. A few years later they will become a vicar, continuing to be a priest.

Does this help?

Hudson -certainly not a private conversation.
yes ordination means that a person can adminster the sacraments (whether two or seven or five whatever one believes) a deacon cannot celebrate the sacrament of Holy Communion (Eucharist, mass whatever)Of course in extremity any baptised christian can baptise.

the second part of ordination is often referred to as 'being priested.

But all you theologians out there can correct me.

The reformation part of history is fascinating as the Book ' The Stripping of The Altars' shows and to look around an old church and find all the hidden bits is wonderful -but having a stonemason in the family helps.

Most people cannot go on digs but can explore a church. One near us is next to the remains of a palace and a prehistoric mound whilst the building itself is in the One Thousand Best churches -a treasure indeed. (sorry I get too enthusiastic)

I keep meaning to read up so I can 'read' churches. Visited hundreds of old church buildings, but my knowledge of architecture is limited so I probably don't get the full picture.

And to add to the priest question, I forgot to say that there are those (possibly including me) who believe in the 'priesthood of all believers'!

Hudson,
Your views and balanced opinions have been sadly missed on this thread of late.
Therefore, all your contributions are welcome, as are the views of everyone else, the more the merrier.
With regard to the ‘Priest’ theme, have we not reached volcanic depths which are somewhat beyond the every day life or realm of the C of E?
With the rigmarole of offences against its supporters in attaining its 1960’s utopia of ‘being with it’, I am not in the least surprised that the Sunday ‘flock’ has diminished down to a mere half million from four million just a few years ago.
A significant drop such as that transmits one prodigious message; Something is radically wrong at the top.
People have informed the C of E authorities that they seek not change for changes sake, but for constructive reasons where, and if, necessary.
Did they take note? Not in the least, so we still have Mickey Mouse versions of the Lord’s Prayer and the 23rd Psalm.
Unfortunately, I had to attend a funeral yesterday. Yet one bright point was that the deceased had stipulated prior to death that he required the traditional Prayer and 23rd Psalm. His request was granted.
I also demand the same, whether I die a Landlubber or at sea. Otherwise, don’t bother.
One incident last year summed up the ‘get with it C of E. I attended a Christening of a family member. The Vicar turned up in a pair of Jeans, trainer’s and a T-shirt. He pulled a smock over his ‘outfit’ and commenced proceedings.
Believing in mutual respect for the man, his office and we supporters, I would have expected better than this. I do not expect the clergyman to appear as if he has just completed a planting session on the ‘Paddy Fields’
Also seeing as all the men present (multiple Christening) wore suits, I found his dress offensive.
Ann, your thesis on education was interesting. Recently I read an article in ‘The Times’ regarding present day education compared to the ‘Penny Schools’ of 1905. Today, approximately 20% of children leave school semi literate, in 1905 it was 8%. Whereas they concentrated on the three R’s and British history, today, British history is taboo and the three R’s are more likely to be heard in strength in the Scottish accent than a British schoolroom. Therefore, does the theory of Shakespeare (whom the 1905’s probably never heard of) and today’s English become a game of ‘Ring-a-ring o’ roses with words? With little education in 1905 they understood both the ‘Prayer and 23rd Psalm perfectly, and today they do not? Sorry, but I do not accept that line of thought. The C of E changed because they wanted to be seen as a ‘with it’ organisation and jumped on the 1960-70’s
bandwagon.
It has cost them dearly, and I believe that most of their one-time supporters no longer care now or are interested in what they do.
Anyone reading this would be under the illusion that I am some form of religious maniac. Nothing could be further from the truth. But with continuous world travel through work and some of the wonders I have seen, I could not be an Atheist.
Yet, Christianity has a lot to answer for. Many people have died in a Christian slaughter, as they have also died in the name of other religions as some of those marching, chanting fanatics on Saturday illustrated.
Notwithstanding this, religion has some very good points. It bonds families and friends. It teaches respect for others and the ‘Commandments’ are basic common sense.
When I was a child at school, we had ‘Scripture’ for the first 30 minutes every morning. It was quite boring. But the message of our mortality got through to us and we never treated our neighbour as our enemy. What contrast today - the age of the foul mouth and the thug. A lot of which has developed with television, illustrating thuggery, obscenity and murder as the ‘norm’. TV has a lot to answer for.
During the past few years, surveys have been taken where TV has been introduced. The results have been devastating. A recent survey in St Helena after the first 12 months of TV shows, the first crimes ever having taken place but that is a topic in it’s own right that could fill pages. As I appear to have ventured onto another topic, so time to conclude another topic on another day.

Ron.

The TV research sounds quite interesting, although it is usually hard to define specific causes. Would it have happened anyway? One of the most striking parts of the film Bowling For Columbine was the sequence of clips of experts all giving their reasons for the massacre, and all being completely different.

It is a shame to just talk about the negativity of TV though. To pick an appropriate example for this website, how many people have got inspired to get into archaeology through Time Team? Certainly that was what got me interested, explained it to me, and led to me going on digs.

With regard to the CofE I think I probably have a very different viewpoint, so had probably best avoid that subject! Quite intrigued by the thought of a Micky Mouse Lord's Prayer.

Like Queen Elizabeth -I seek not a window into men's souls -it is between them and their God as to how they acknowledge Him (or Her perhaps if you are a pagan)We are all called in different ways.

But to history -today in 1983 Shergar was kidnapped-= and if they ill treated him I hope they suffer!

Also today Mary Queen of Scots and Peter the Great died -I am not an admirer of either particluarly of Mary because she used her religion as it suited, married a divorced Protestant when it looked like regaining her her throne and then insisted on dying a martyr to her faith! If she hadn't allowed lust to cloud her judgement in the first place with darnley she might not have been in such a mess.
(sorry don't wish to upset the lady's admirers, she was attractive, graceful and cultivated and tried to be inclusive of all but had a rotten set of relatives)

quote:

Originally posted by Ann Wilkinson:
Also today Mary Queen of Scots and Peter the Great died -I am not an admirer of either particluarly of Mary

The British love a tragic loser though, just look at Charles Edward Stuart. Just the fact that they were unsuccessful is enough to endear them to a lot of people.

WEll it depends as far as I am concerned. King Harold was unsuccessful but I have a very soft spot for him. Charles Edward -much like his great great grandmother (is that enough greats)charm and no common sense.

no another great

I have just returned from a rapid 30 hour business trip to Tenerife. As the temperature is normally in the mid seventies this time of the year, I wore a lightweight suit.
Upon arrival, a bitterly cold wind was blowing, with torrential rain, and the temperature was 39 F!. returned to England for a warm!.
If I may recap on the TV discussion.
I am probably the least justified in forwarding an opinion on this topic. I watch very little TV. When I am home, my TV viewing is mainly confined to four subjects. The News, Time Team, PMQ’s and Question Time. Without something outstanding is on, that is it.
When home, I see my family and friends and pursue my many hobbies. I am also an avid reader. Therefore, TV does not enter the equation. I find 95% of programmes xenobiotic to my interests. I fully agree with Hudson, TT has taught me a lot about Archaeology, whereas previously I was in ignorance, and I have enjoyed the pleasure of learning whilst watching.
Question; Does TV both educate and inform for the good of mankind?
Answer; Yes.
Question; Has TV had a detrimental effect and routined, murder, violence and obscenity?
Answer; Yes.
I find that I cannot be impervious to some of the gutter decadence that masquerades as entertainment. So, I switch off.
Speaking as an individual. I could quite happily switch the TV off for good. I wouldn’t miss it, or the aberrations that camouflage rubbish under the title programme.
The term ‘Pro Bono Publico’ does not always denote true service.

Veering off on a complete tangent. The village of Willaston in Cheshire is desperately short of ‘Rattiganons’ and ‘Wirlydonnings’ for their (June) world worm charming contests.
Anyone interested in filling these posts contact the village council.

I will conclude on a sad note, where the money God has won and the dirtiest word in the dictionary prevails; = ‘Developer’.
This week, the historic Warships Museum in Birkenhead closed. Ships include Falklands veterans HMS Plymouth and HMS Onyx. Also, U-boat U-534 and other vessels.
The old warehouse and dockside have been purchased from MDHC and the intention is to create ‘luxury’ flats with boating facilities.. The Warship trust has been told to ‘get out’ It makes me want to puke.

Ron.