I think they are probably still safer in keeping here (UK), having visited greece and seen how they look after their antiquities. But yes - agreed they have the right to have them returned, but under an oath to give them the respect they deserve and keep them for posterity in a safe environment.
I agree with Brazilian. Keep the marbles. Give the Greeks some high quality replicas to place on the Parthenon (are they rebuilding it??) If Elgin didn’t take those friezes, who knows what would have happened to them. You Brits saved the marbles. I think the Elgin Marbles have become part of your own heritage.
God how I hate mealy-mouthed repatriators. We have been down the primrose path of this particular argument many times before and if someone out there thinks they "know what's right", jolly good luck to them. I think you will find what's "right" tends to look different from other angles.
Well you may have been down it many times but I never asked you to respond mlh (stands for moans like hell?). Clearly you know what's right in your own mind, though surprised there's enough room in there to formulate a coherent thought.
Originally posted by GreenRug: Well you may have been down it many times but I never asked you to respond mlh (stands for moans like hell?). Clearly you know what's right in your own mind, though surprised there's enough room in there to formulate a coherent thought.
GreenRug, mlh (I won't say her name) is one of the posters on here you have got wrong in your comment above. She is, by her knowledge and expertise the one person here who can say anything, and will have got it about right.
The idea of hopskis post was *discuss* was it not, so why say you didn't ask mlh to comment - it's an open forum and as such, she, and yourself and the rest of us have the right to our opinions, we don't all have to agree.
Fair enough comment Brazilian about the discussion aspect. But regardless of who mlh is or what her 'expertise' might be she certainly isn't expert in politeness, hence my tetchy riposte. One can disagree without throwing mealy-mouthed and hate into the argument.
I visit this forum because I have an interest in history but I'm usually to be found elsewhere. This forum seems to compare badly to others in terms of opinion shading into opinionated and downright rude, which I can do as well as the next person when riled.
And isn't it time we gave Hadrian's Wall back to the Italians?
This forum does compare badly to others, I'm 100% in agreement with you there, it's the reason that although I've been around for many years, I don't post often as, like you, I'm normally to be found elsewhere. It also has a bad track record for personal abuse, which can, at times be quite entertaining.
However, this forum is where we are now, so no -I'd quite like Hadrians Wall to stay where it is thank you very much.
Originally posted by mlh: God how I hate mealy-mouthed repatriators. We have been down the primrose path of this particular argument many times before and if someone out there thinks they "know what's right", jolly good luck to them. I think you will find what's "right" tends to look different from other angles.
Yes, previous discussions on this subject were about on this forum but several years ago. So what. This is now, we have new contributers and the topic is current given the news article.
Greenrug is entitled to an opinion just as you are but I guess he is honoured to get a full broadside from you just as I did years ago on F1 for expressing an opinion.
I am a mealy mouthed repatriator, and as far as I know (I haven't been in Athens for some time) they have built a super new museum alongside or near the Parthenon to hold all the bits that have fallen of it. Like the Elgin marbles. They mean so much more in situ, the whole grand conception can be imagined as one piece again.
Originally posted by mlh: God how I hate mealy-mouthed repatriators. We have been down the primrose path of this particular argument many times before and if someone out there thinks they "know what's right", jolly good luck to them. I think you will find what's "right" tends to look different from other angles.
So the whole arguements done and dusted is it Mandy? No one can possibly offer a new opinion?
Originally posted by pepinouska: ...they have built a super new museum alongside or near the Parthenon to hold all the bits that have fallen of it. Like the Elgin marbles. They mean so much more in situ...
Sorry - but how does a new museum display the pieces "in situ" any more than the BM does?
Taken in context I think it's a reasonable remark, you CAN imagine the whole concept if the component parts are closer than they are at present - no???? It would mean they are on the site, ie the site of the Parthenon.
When the Marbles first came to GB, they were badly treated it seems, but then the Greeks thought the fixation that the nation had with long neglected antiquities was "ludicrous". However, I've recently been to Greece and I don't think they realise the importance of their own heritage, as some of the archaeology there is appallingly poorly stored/displayed/left to the elements!
The Elgin Marbles belong in-situ, and if that can happen, then yes, by all means, I'm sure that's the place for them, failing that, then they should be where they are safest, where ever that may be. (I'm sitting on the wall a bit).
The main purpose of a museum display should be to help visitors appreciate what original objects really look like and how they were made and/or used. Another purpose is the preservation of ancient or valuable objects.
With the Elgin Marbles I think that the BM could better represent the magnificent splendour of the originals in a spectacular modern digital production and send the Marbles back where they belong. As I wrote earlier I would question why the BM in the 21st Century would take up lots of space with these damaged Greek marbles when there is literally tons of exceptional British artefacts in storage that no one ever sees.
Presumably like the aborigine skulls and skeletons! Don't think the 'heritage' card trumps the 'doing what's right' card, myself.
This was the comment I found glib and unsupported, and thus my tirade, for which I can only apologise. Assumptions about "what's right" are expressions of personal values not ultimate truths of course. I suppose my overreaction was based on a lifetime (35 years) as a professional in a national museum which takes the idea of heritage very seriously. All national museums are sensitive collectors these days and have to be able to justify new acquisions in the light of international agreements. Objects purchased or donated over a century ago were obtained under a very different set of assumptions. Going out and bringing home bits of other people's heritage was what our culture did. There isn't an international agreement that all foreign artifacts should be sent back to the country of origin. The Elgin marbles were legitimately obtained, by the standards of the time anyway, and are no more going home than the Egyptian artifacts in Paris, or the Dutch Old Masters in Washington. The British Museum Act would have to be repealed first anyway...
I guess the reason why these marbles are so emotive compared to paintings and artifacts are they were once fixtures and adorments of something that still exists and is very much a symbol of that country and it's heritage.
No need to apologise. Glibness and tirades are what make the threads interesting. Of course what is 'right' is an expression of personal values and not ultimate truth. And each of us is able to make those expressions regardless of experience and 'professionalism'. Yes stuff was acquired under a different set of assumptions, but your choice of words paints a rosy picture ('bringing home'). One could equally argue stuff was 'ripped' from its home, 'looted' perhaps, during a period of rampant looting by rather imperious people. Revisionist maybe, but the point is that the same assumptions no longer hold. Is it time to reconsider the materials under new assumptions? I ask the question rather than push the anwer.
