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.....which is why I said in another thread that I did not want archaeologists to try and court popularity.
I guess many of my generation have a horror of anything that smacks of genetic labelling as we had to endure hours of studying Hitler and what did and might have happened.
I remember my older sister smugly saying that I would be alright if the Germans invaded because I was very, very blonde whilst she and the rest of the family had black hair - I suffered agonies thinking that if the germans reappeared I would be separated from my family. One of my dearest friends is Jewish -daughter of a German Jewish intellectual who fled in the nick of time -to this day none of the family every reveal their Jewish origins so traumatised were they.
It is history now, studied in an academic way -but for some the tentacles still reach out.
On another point -yes jenni I too am gloriously mongrel -my father's family came over with the Conqueror so as Normans I guess they were viking in origin -my mother's family are staunch East Anglicans and so probably anglo-saxon (and my mother always said my great gramndmother on my father's side was Romany!)
As my husband is almost pure Scot -what does that make my children!
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quote: Originally posted by Steffan:
Not an easy task as we all have our prejudices I suppose.
That's the problem. So many find it difficult or impossible not to gloat at finding pure blood of whatever variety they are seeking to attach themselves to. Hitler's ideals were, of course, somewhat unfathomable in that he didn't suit the genetic profile himself...  I never quite understood how his disparity from his own ideal made him think himself suitable for power. |
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I should, of course, have said East Anglians tho' they were in fact anglican as well.
I just think that what a person is is the important thing to judge by -not what race their forefathers emerged from.
Its like the mania for tracing ancestry. Being somewhat conversant with our parish records I am sometime inundated with people seeking information (without paying for it which is what they would have to do at the records office!) Some are fanatical in their searches so much so that they lose sight of today.
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quote: Originally posted by Ann W.:
As my husband is almost pure Scot -what does that make my children!
Pure Scot, Ann?  Is that as in the Irish Scotii or the Picts, Brythons, Danish, Swedish, Angles etcetera? |
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quote: Originally posted by Ann W.:
Its like the mania for tracing ancestry. Being somewhat conversant with our parish records I am sometime inundated with people seeking information (without paying for it which is what they would have to do at the records office!) Some are fanatical in their searches so much so that they lose sight of today.
It can be enlightening though, and an interesting exercise in social history. Having been one to bemoan the plight of my coal mining ancestors in South Wales, it was a bit of an eye-opener to realise that my Wiltshire and Somerset ancestors would have seen crawling around in tiny underground coal headings for hours and hours every day as a step up the ladder from the abject poverty of the countryside. |
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Point of Interest, Mr. Chairman.
While I was trying to find out more about this series (there is very little on the C4 site) I came across some potted biographies of the programme / project's geneticist, Walter Bodmer. Considering some of the comments we have made here regarding genetics and Nazi Germany it seems to me quite relevant to note that he was born in Nazi Germany and fled to Britain in 1936 as his was a Jewish family. I thought that I would point this out as I suspect he would be very aware of the possibilities.
While I was searching Google also offered me the Stormfront White Nationalist Community, I didn't bother checking its content.
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OK Steffan you have a point and probably half of me spoke from the jaundiced view that some people will ask me for hours of searching and not even offer to pay for the photocopying. The church says that we can charge for searching but none of us ever does.
and coming from the West family group and another family that has a geneologist -I do have my family tree back many centuries so I am not really entitled to comment but I do think that sometimes searchers are escaping from what they are and where they are today.
Poverty in rural areas - I remember my mother telling me that in WW1 when my grandfather joined up -my grandmother had to help do some of his job in looking after the horses as well as her own and look after three small children. My mother remembered finding her crying with exhaustion and worry
(being the youngest of parents who were the youngest of their families -my father by many years and my grandfather being born 20 years after his sisters, my family stretches way back in years. My grandaughter has great, great aunts and uncles but my great grandmother is in a 1850s crinoline)
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On the question of Nazi Germany, it is the more recent and much more local upturn of racism which so saddens me. I have traced my ancestors as far as the early 1700's and they lived about 5 miles from where I live now. I guess I am as much "English" as a lot of those "Celts" on the programme. Ever since I can remember back in the 50's I have always revelled in the achievements of the inhabitants of Great Britain, the engineers, scientists, sports people, artists, military and so on. I was more than happy to call myself British. But that is changing and I have to say it is because of the antics of a lot of the "Celtic Fringe" although mainly the Scottish element. When you have prominent celebrities who are happy to take their accolades (and income) from the backs of the British and yet will not live in Britain, or will only represent Britain through gritted teeth, or will support any country's sport rather than their nearest neighbour, or even turn up their noses because you are not Scottish (and I have personally received that in Wales) then you begin to wonder. And it is not just a few celebrities either, think of the yobs beating up a lad who wore an "English" football shirt. Of course the "English" have not been pure in their dealing with their neighbours, but can they hold their heads up instead? We are all mongrels in fact and it seems such a shame that we cannot just laugh at these nationalist types (of whatever country) and put them in their place. It took the best part of a thousand years to achieve any unification on this small island and thus become truly "Great" and it is all being thrown away and for what? Being "English" or "Scottish" or "Welsh"? Is it worth it?
Dave g B
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quote: Originally posted by Dave g B:
On the question of Nazi Germany, it is the more recent and much more local upturn of racism which so saddens me. I have traced my ancestors as far as the early 1700's and they lived about 5 miles from where I live now. I guess I am as much "English" as a lot of those "Celts" on the programme. Ever since I can remember back in the 50's I have always revelled in the achievements of the inhabitants of Great Britain, the engineers, scientists, sports people, artists, military and so on. I was more than happy to call myself British. But that is changing and I have to say it is because of the antics of a lot of the "Celtic Fringe" although mainly the Scottish element. When you have prominent celebrities who are happy to take their accolades (and income) from the backs of the British and yet will not live in Britain, or will only represent Britain through gritted teeth, or will support any country's sport rather than their nearest neighbour, or even turn up their noses because you are not Scottish (and I have personally received that in Wales) then you begin to wonder. And it is not just a few celebrities either, think of the yobs beating up a lad who wore an "English" football shirt. Of course the "English" have not been pure in their dealing with their neighbours, but can they hold their heads up instead? We are all mongrels in fact and it seems such a shame that we cannot just laugh at these nationalist types (of whatever country) and put them in their place. It took the best part of a thousand years to achieve any unification on this small island and thus become truly "Great" and it is all being thrown away and for what? Being "English" or "Scottish" or "Welsh"? Is it worth it?
Quite a few generalisations mixed in there, Dave. Is it not more of a case that all of us are still to varying degrees a little wary of 'outsiders', whether it be from other nations of the UK or even from different areas and communities within those nations. However, I feel that the vast majority of people are not of a malevolent nature and the perceived prejudice may outbalance the intended prejudice of any such behaviour. |
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Yes, Steffan, there are generalisations there but I refrained from naming names or particular events. Other than that I speak from personal experience. I have worked with a vast variety of people throughout my life and, frankly, I really do not care much from where they originate so long as I am treated fairly. I believe I treat them the same. However, when I worked in Wales, I did indeed meet prejudice from the local people either deliberately sneering in my face because I was "English" (a local farmer I was attempting to serve) or speaking Welsh to exclude me from the conversation when I was part of the group. Exceptional maybe, but it did happen to me. In Scotland as a tourist I have felt uncomfortable but never so in Cornwall. As I say, it saddens be a lot and I wish it were not so. I sincerely hope, like you, that the vast majority are not malevolent and put the separatist political movements in their place.
Dave g B
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I don't think this programme is building this up to knock it down later.... I have perused the accompanying book in Tesco and it sticks to this reassertion of antiquated, Victorian invasion theory history.
Like i say, the producers had an agenda to stick to and a conclusion to reach and misrepresented the facts to fit - see above reference to Bleadon Man. He was portrayed as apparently looking like the vast majority of the "Celtic" Cornishmen (although the faces i saw in the programme had little to no resemblance to him) - and yet they failed to mention his direct Genetic ancestors alive in Somerset today!! Hardly using the latest advances in science now, are they??
As to the composite face of 'Kelly Jones' representing the "Celts", I could find you a match for this face ANYWHERE in Britain....
'Face of Britain' claims the people of England who do not match this look are incomers. And yet Julius Caesar mentioned tall blonde haired, blue eyed Celts when he landed in the South East of what is now England.... so how does Neil Oliver account for these people?? Could not the dark haired, dark eyed people of the South West be the later incomers?? Prove otherwise!!
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quote: Originally posted by Pulp History:
As to the composite face of 'Kelly Jones' representing the "Celts", I could find you a match for this face ANYWHERE in Britain....
Is that Kelly Jones of the Stereophonics? |
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quote: Originally posted by Pulp History:
Like i say, the producers had an agenda to stick to and a conclusion to reach and misrepresented the facts to fit - see above reference to Bleadon Man. He was portrayed as apparently looking like the vast majority of the "Celtic" Cornishmen (although the faces i saw in the programme had little to no resemblance to him) - and yet they failed to mention his direct Genetic ancestors alive in Somerset today!! Hardly using the latest advances in science now, are they??
I thought it was a bit off, not mentioning 'Meet the Ancestors'. I thought about that programme even before they mentioned Bleadon Man. All in all, it seems that the programme has been put together badly. Perhaps the genetic findings will help by contributing to the general database. However, even these findings are getting mixed up in a mish mash of ideas, theories and research. Next week they'll probably start measuring skulls.  |
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quote: Next week they'll probably start measuring skulls
Well there is always the London Phrenology Company - founded 1983ish -I really didn't believe anyone still believed in such a 'science' till I cam across it- but they do! |
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Steff - In answer to your earlier question - I missed the first couple of minutes myself, but in the remainder of the introduction there was no mention of the great debate over using the word Celt for inhabitants of the British Isles speaking Celtic languages.
Neil Oliver declared that most historians do not believe that there were major invasions of the British Isles between the arrival of the hunter-gatherers post last Ice Age and the Roman period. Ergo Celts = hunter gatherers.
In fact the whole issue of whether farming was brought in to the British Isles by farming people or by spread of ideas cannot be resolved by historians, because it happened in pre-history. Nor can archaeologists resolve it. This is exactly the sort of problem that population genetics has tackled in a very interesting way. The programme missed out an important chunk of the DNA detective story.
As for labelling people as Celt or Anglo-Saxon on the basis of blood group and a single gene - I was disappointed. The differences in blood group distribution in different areas of Britain have been known for donkey's years. I have neat maps of same in my old Reader's Digest Atlas (1965). The new wave of population genetics has gone way past that.
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idea for new prog...
FARCE OF BRITAIN
pre-conceived conclusion: That the first post glacial humans were pushed by successive waves of immigrants from all sides into a lone cluster grouping of pure Britons, who now reside in the village of Preston Bagot.
methodology: A vast study of 300 earlobes is to be carried out in Weymouth, Dorset and Inverness. Then using the latest developments in 3D modelling the composite is to be compared to one petrified ear found in a gravel quarry. THis will provide conclusive proof that the population of Preston Bagot are the ONLY true Britons with a direct genetic link to the first post glacial incomers - and that they have never bred with any 'Anglo-Saxons' (snigger. Look of shock.)
It will also explain why no-one has ever heard of Preston Bagot, as no 'German' has ever been there, even though they live in close proximity.
Could make me a few million quid!!
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quote: A vast study of 300 earlobes
any advance upon earlobes being used? Are there other parts of the anatomy more suitable and 'individual' for instance? |
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Hmmm.. other parts of the anatomy??
I did hear about a bloke who reckoned he had a Celtic toe... the one next to his big toe. He pondered why the gap between the "Celtic" toe and the big toe was so large. It dawned on him later that it must be because the bigger and dominant toe was actually an "Anglo-Saxon" toe and the "Celtic" toe wanted to distance himself from his neighbour and claim individuality - he did in fact have athletes foot, which was a completely seperate 'culture'!!
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OK, count me in. What about a detailed study of human coprolites found in the UK. The programme and book would, of course, be The Faeces of Britain.
Sorry.
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Do I detect a note of frivolity creeping in here? A certain lack of respect for ground-breaking, state of the art scientific/historical research; for programme planning which must have lasted for - oh - several minutes? I thought so. Don't you realise what this could mean? You could be challenged to :- Ceilidhs at dawn!! Please, think of the neighbours!
Dave g B
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Also suggest that Neil Oliver presents the next C4 programme, entitled "100% Scottish"...
In it he will discover that not only is he 100% Celt, but also 40% Norweigan, 28% Sassenach, 5% Pict and 26% Norman French (remaining 1% Mekon). This will be revealed to Neil Oliver by an hysterical Anne Widdecombe, who presents him with a statue of Alfred the great (one of his ancestors). Closing scene to be Neil Oliver being taken away in a straight jacket screaming "There can't be Anglo Saxon in me, I'm a pure blood Celt" with Jerusalem played to fade.
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Ceildh's, I think I could cope with. One of the problems of having predominantly Anglo-Saxon genes is that the only form of folk dancing permitted to me is Morris Dancing.  And I really don't have the figure for those white trousers!  |
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Predictions for Episode 2....
1.5 x chance of being banal
2.7 x chance of containing derogatory comments of 'Anglo Saxons'
5.1 x chance of Neil Oliver looking smug in his knowledge of his own Celtic supremacy
0.1 x chance of mentioning proper genetic archaeologists such as Bryan Sykes or stephen oppenheimer
I have calculated that my mother has a 3.4 x chance of being Celtic and my father has a 5.2 x chance of being Celtic, therefore I have a 17.68 x chance of being descended from some bloke who got cut off by the rising sea levels.... doesn't mean much does it??
Bill Bryson makes a good point about genetics... 1 man and woman having two children 500 years ago would now have over 1 million descendants... another 100 years (so 600 years ago) and they would have 33 million descendants.... AND THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT PEOPLE WHO CAME HERE CIRCA 9000 BC!!!
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