Can anyone point me to a useful online resource please? I would like to match a particular style of doorway in a church to as tight a range of dates as I can. Is there a good website with illustrations of the various styles from Norman (Romanesque) through the various gothic styles? I have looked about but can't find much other than some rather generalised descriptions that you could get in any textbook. Any ideas please?
Thanks for that. I'll have a browse. I have found out that the arch form is called a trefoil arch. It is the west door of a Surrey church [Merstham], and I have two conflicting reports of its age - ca 1200, or fifteenth century. I suspect the former as it was an eminent cathedral historian who told me in person when we went to look at it. I just have a niggling doubt, and I like doing my own research anyway.
According to Lucy Archer, Architecture in Britain and Ireland 600-1500 (London 1999), pp.128-9
quote:
Arches with trefoil heads often appeared in wall arcading by the early thirteenth century, but they were not generally used in windows for another fifty years.
as to dating trefoil arches.. I am afraid they can be from all these periods.. imho...
It would need more info.. like moulding details and shapes .. they start (as has been said... ) around the mid 13th c... but you can find the same details in the 19th - quite well used in 15th century.. any other details
Good point BAJR. We can generally tell the earliest date at which a style evolved or arrived in the UK, but styles often continue to be used for years and years after that, and then we have later revivals to consider.
The suggested date of c.1200 seems too early. That is the date generally given for the retrochoir of Winchester Cathedral, which has blank arcading with trefoil arches
This seems to be one of the earliest examples of the trefoil.
But if the trefoil was not appearing in windows until c. 1250, I doubt if it was in doors until that period either.
I would be interested to know more about the door sourround mouldings as well as other architectural evidence.. looking at a single feature could be problamatic..
As both Jean and I have mentioned.. a single architectural feature does not maketh a date. And I agree that as teh earliest is Winchester.. it may have been a while before this style would appear in the example given.
As both Jean and I have mentioned.. a single architectural feature does not maketh a date.
Clarification. I didn't actually say that in this thread, but on my website.
quote:
The style of architectural details, such as windows and doors, is good dating evidence, but only for those features. New doors and windows can always be added to older fabric. Unravelling the sequence of building and alteration needs patience and practice: see guides to the interpretation of fabric.
I gave one in reply to the initial post on this thread, but that post has now been removed. Possibly it was seen as self-promotion.
Not to worry. You have at least one link to my site from bajr.org. (Look for Castles: Sources for History.) You used to have a link to the base url, but I can't find it now that you have the fancy new website. (Congratulations on that, by the way.)
Ah... got you... I tip my hat to you... and its nice to know you in 'person' so to speak... will watch my buildings language from now on !
You will be gald to know that as BAJR kind of grew bigger than I thought it would.. I am currently revamping it.. so finding stuff will be easier... including your site... I promise.
You have a one of these rare sites that is actually one to get lost in... and enjoy every minute.
Through having loads of brilliant people who give of their time to help me.. producing guides, recommending links.. correcting errors .. suggesting new directions.. and keeping me feeling that it does make a difference ... and its fun!
i would be happy just recording buildings and running BAJR... bliss!
At least I am back doing that for the NTS.. so I have the joy of Culross in Fife and the fab Pineapple at Dunmore to play with.. though I am now getting a reputation as the 'Wall' man..
Architecture is such a visible archaeology... more people should get in to it.. and thats where you come in!
Sorry guys. I've been away for a while. Can we post photos here? Otherwise I can load an image onto another site and post a link to it. Please be patient though. The mouldings have the sort of dogtooth features I think are associated with Norman styles - sorry I'm not an expert on this stuff. And the trefoil is obviously the inner profie, the outer profile of the stonework is a typical 'early english' arch. The 'circles' that make up the trefoil are of different sizes, the top one being significantly larger than the other two.
Looking at all the features.. I would be happy with a 14/15th century date.. the reason I am going earlier is the style of dog-tooth and the general feel and form of the trefoil and roll moulding... It does not look 12th century though... over to Jean for a more sensible reply!
English Heritage has listed the church as early C13 with alterations. From their description I see that the doorway is in a tower with lancet windows i.e. Early English.
The simplest approach is to see the door as part of the original 13C build, not a later insertion. Given the rubble wall it's hard to tell. However the simplicity of the dog-tooth decoration fits the Early English period.
The Early English style of the dog tooth decoration did seem to indicate an earlier date.. with dogtooth evolving over the centuries into a more developed floral or fancy version.. It does look like it is not an insertion, but as you say, due to the walling it is hard to say for sure...
If Jean says its 13th though, I would tend to say that sounds likely, (also given the location in the country)
So it seems that the consensus is neither 15th or 12th but in between .. would I be right?
One thing that puzzles me is that Reigate stone is notoriously bad at resisting the effects of weathering. The details seem too fresh to me to be more than 200, or even 100 years old! Might we be looking at some Victorian restoration here? And if so, how faithful was it?
Here's a photo of the south door, by the way. Also Reigate stone despite the colour - there's a lot of paint there. This one is protected inside the porch.
I don't know how you find the time to do everything you do.
