The best thing to do if you don't like graveyard archaeology is to hit the off button.

I have done it with both TT and some programmes on the History channel.

I wouldn't do it with this one though.

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Originally posted by InExile:

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Originally posted by Caedbaed:

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Originally posted by InExile:
Am I the only one to feel uncomfortable that graves were desecrated in the name of entertainment? In fact I was disgusted with the way that newly discovered graves were greeted with whoops of childish excitement, reminiscent of little children opening christmas presents. One of the presenters even shouted that he could see a skeleton in one of them - what else would he expect? The graves were then ripped open and the bones yanked out and slung in plastic bags "for carbon dating". One poor lady who had lain undisturbed for nigh on 1400 years even had her remaining hair scooped out unceremoniously on the end of a trowel, for no reason other than to tell us that Manx girls used to plait their hair all those years ago. I think this episode crossed a line.

It's a television programme.

And there's me thinking it's an archaeological dig.

No, honestly, it really is a television programme.

Telly first, read Britarch.

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Originally posted by Owain G:
Iron Age pagan no's 112365-112389 are never going to get the same treatment as someones Great Uncle Geoff ,and it saddens me sometimes.

But would a pagan want a burial in accordance with Uncle Geoff's Christian practices or in accordance with their own beliefs and practices, which 21st century folk have very little knowledge about?

Taggy - as Ooban points out, once these graves had been featured on the programme people with far less respect than TT and professional archaeologists are likely to come along. It's amazing what you can sell on Ebay nowadays and 1400-year-old hair would probably excite a lot of interest and curiosity in certain markets.

It always strikes me that when people talk about the desecration of graves by archaeologists they never seem to consider the wider context - Egyptian tombs, for example. Should they all have been left alone? Am I the only person fascinated by investigations into mummies and what we learn from them about people's habits, health, lifestyles, burial practices etc? (If I am, then there's an awful lot of tv programmes put out just for my enjoyment! ) Yet it's the same principle of "desecration" of the dead.

Can Someone tell me what Happens to all the body/ bones that TT find, like where do they go, Just reading what Owain has just said. I would hate to think that they have been there for 1,000 of years & were place to rest by their loved ones & now they are in some Plastic bag in a box in some room in a museum & just left. Why can't they just uncover them Photo them & put the earth back ??

The human remains are most probably in a box on a shelf in some museum depository or a central storage space. This is what would happen in England & Wales at any rate. If it is decided that the remains could be of future scientific use or interest, then that is probably where they will remain. If it is deemed that no further information can be gleaned from them then they should be re-interred. Usually it is up to the excavators to decide when this is so. The problem is that each archaeologist tends to hope that more can be got from their grave finds and are reluctant to let them be returned to the earth. However, I believe that one of the main obstacles to many of the bodies being buried again is the cost and the problem of space.

Also, there is the problem of the type of burial. So-called pagan graves should obviously not be subjected to Christian / Muslim / Jewish rites. Even where the bodies are discovered in Christian sites, we do not know 100% what their beliefs were. Burial often reflects the belief of those doing the burying than those being buried. Some of the graves were already disturbed remember, there were ditches cutting through some of the graves in the trenches.

Presumably the IOM site is no longer consecrated. That would prove problematic. I also wonder if the IOM government has laws about burying human remains on golf courses.

I can understand that it may be distressing for some people (possibly more so for Christians watching the excavation of Christian graves?) but burials are disturbed in much worse ways all the time, usually in the name of redevelopment or to make way for more burials. "Great Uncle Geoff" is probably more likely to be disturbed by a council JCB than carefully removed by a trowel and brush.

Many Thanks Steffan for telling me its a shame that she is in a box in storage space & in the place she was lade to rest. Maybe TT Could make a Programme all about the storage space bodys & what does happen to them. That must be one hell of a big place..Will IOM get to keep the Body/Bones I would like to think that she would stay on home place..

This might not really apply to this particular site so much, but one thing that I feel should be pointed out about a lot of cemetaries, particularly those that have been in use over a long period of time, is that it is common for a lot of the earlier burials to be disturbed by the digging of later graves.

Many earlier graves were excavated at a shallow depth then they are now (the six feet under dictat is a fairly recent stipulation)Often they were only marked with wooden grave markers (if they were marked at all) which dissapeared fairly quickly making it impossible for the gravediggers of later periods to tell where they were located. Any field archaeologist who's had to work in a church graveyard, clearing burials in advance of building work will usually find disarticulated remains from earlier burials in gravefills, its jus one of those things.

All this might seem obvious to the seasoned posters here,I know but it's still something that a lot of people aren't aware of, prehaps.As an aside, the attitudes of various members of the clergy I've had to deal with in those situations is often a good deal more pragmatic then their parishoners. They tend to have the attitude that a new vestry or a better drainage system for their church is more important then anonymous mortal remains

One thing I'm never very happy with, though is the somewhat voyeristic nature that cemetary excavations on TV often give off. Normally, when archaeologists are excavating burials that are within public view, they have to be shielded.Doing it on TV with camera lenses zooming in frantically all over the place seems to make a bit of a mockery of that.

I don't personally object to bodies be excavated, as another poster above remarked, it's nothing more then then leftover calcium,basically but I'm fully aware that it upsets some people.

I'm just going by what I have seen and been told in the Museum of London and have heard about in other establishments. I would assume that the remains would stay in IOM, but you can't be certain of it. They could well be sent somewhere for tests, but I would have thought that the Manx Museum would be the logical place in the end. However, there is no reason why they should not be re-interred eventually. Sometimes. of course, the bodies become museum exhibits as in the case of Lindow Man.

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Originally posted by Chris D:
One thing I'm never very happy with, though is the somewhat voyeristic nature that cemetary excavations on TV often give off. Normally, when archaeologists are excavating burials that are within public view, they have to be shielded.Doing it on TV with camera lenses zooming in frantically all over the place seems to make a bit of a mockery of that.

I was thinking the very same. I wonder if that is what has caused more of a response in this case compared to the many other graves excavated by TT over the years.

Trouble here is that they went to IoM specifically to excavate a known burial area. If they hadn't excavated those graves, then there would not have been a program. It made good viewing yes - but they have in the past excavated many graves, that's what seem to excite people who want to see how we lived, how we died and what happened to us in the middle.

I feel uncomfortable with this episode as it seemed to be specifically to unearth the remains, it didn't appear to be rescue archaeology, which is one good, maybe the only good reason to remove interred remains.

I still watched it though, from the beginning, and if I had turned it off because it offended my sense of propriety, it would not have stopped it being shown.

When all said and done, we all end up dead.

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Originally posted by brazilian:
Trouble here is that they went to IoM specifically to excavate a known burial area. If they hadn't excavated those graves, then there would not have been a program. It made good viewing yes - but they have in the past excavated many graves, that's what seem to excite people who want to see how we lived, how we died and what happened to us in the middle.
I feel uncomfortable with this episode as it seemed to be specifically to unearth the remains, it didn't appear to be rescue archaeology, which is one good, maybe the only good reason to remove interred remains.I still watched it though, from the beginning, and if I had turned it off because it offended my sense of propriety, it would not have stopped it being shown. When all said and done, we all end up dead.

Yes, they said from the outset that they hoped to be able to date the site and get an idea of the site's chronological run by carbon-dating the skeletons in the graves. The aim was to use the findings to try and determine the date that Christianity had come to IOM and when the Vikings had been Christianised. Were the graves part of a pre-Viking site etc? The fact that John Gater and co had been there and had geofizzed the site years before showed how much they knew about the location of the graves.

I was, incidentally, amazed by the fact that all through the programme we were informed about the C14 results. This sort of post-excavation detail has been missing from shows in the past, when they have seemed content just to say that they'll leave the information with the 'boffins'.

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Originally posted by Chris D:One thing I'm never very happy with, though is the somewhat voyeristic nature that cemetary excavations on TV often give off.

Conversely, they can often dispel some of the myths about cavalier attitudes in archaeology when it comes to the excavation of human remains. I think TT does well in general to convey the respect and consideration given to the remains.

Having had my uncle's remains dug up within 40 years of his death because they got in the way of an extension to a hospital, I agree they probably got treated with far less reverence than given by Phil and the team.

Whilst understanding the problematic nature of dealing with Pagan burial rites in the 21stC I do feel there is a deeper issue here.Put simply, people are people.

Uncle Geoeff kisses his daughter Mary goodbye goes out and is killed in a rockfall.Buried as a pagan in Iron Age Bitain he lies in the ground till Time Team excavate him for T.V.
His dislocated bones are filmed,carbon dated and analyzed before sitting on a shelf in a museum .What happens when the usefullness of Uncle Geoff is 'up' has never been fully explained here.
Uncle Geoff kisses his daughter Mary goodbye sets sail on a Tudor warship which capsises.Time Team bring Uncle Geoffs bones ashore film them and after analysis he is buried in the local church.
Uncle Geoff kisses his daughter Mary goodbye takes off in his Spitfire and is blown to pieces by an ME 109.Time Team film a special where they recover a splinter of Uncle Geoffs thigh. This is filmed in close up along with his pipe and shirt button.This splinter quite rightly receives a full military funeral.

Its very 'now' to think of yourself as a pile of useless carbon,I'm sure any of 'Uncle Geoffs' families would argue differently.

This is how the forum should be, but so rarely is - a lively exchange of views and opinions, without trolling or unpleasantness. I'm particularly pleased to see that several people have obviously felt strongly enough about the programme to join us and express their feelings. Welcome to you all, and please stay and discuss lots more topics.

Agreed, Owain, people are people, and were people - and matter just as much whatever happens to their bodies, whether they're cremated or buried, whether their bones survive or not, whether they're disturbed, dug up, or simply never rediscovered.

I would actually like to be dug up at some time in the future! I'm fascinated by the idea of being able to communicate with someone far into the future. I'm going to have a little plaque on a chain round my neck, with my name and dates of birth and death on it, and if possible a picture of myself. Anyone know what might survive best - brass? ceramic? gold - but might that be more likely to be taken by grave-robbers?

I thought it was a great start to the series.

I agree with Ooban - I'd be honoured if I was dug up and analysed to give information to archaeologists if the future. Of course, the multi-period grave goods might confuse them a bit

Strangely, some of the religious Christians I know have the least problem with disturbing burials. They see the body as empty, the spirit having moved on, so it being no longer a person. My Archaeology of Death module covered this attitude, which is thought to have prevailed (in the UK at lease) until around Victorian times, bourne out by the change in the kind of inscription found on headstones. Later ones refer to falling asleep etc, while earlier ones tended to concentrate on being departing the mortal form and eaten by worms etc!

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Originally posted by Owain G:
Its very 'now' to think of yourself as a pile of useless carbon,I'm sure any of 'Uncle Geoffs' families would argue differently.

But all your scenarios assume that Uncle Geoff even had a family. We know nothing about people's families or histories before records began. It also assumes that Uncle Geoff's family, if he had one, would care in the way 21st century families do and have the same concerns about his remains. We can't impose 21st century values on (eg) bronze age people but we don't have any other knowledge to apply.

The Museum of London are having a symposium in March on the handling of human remains:

Value of Human Remains in Museums

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Originally posted by Jenni:
But all your scenarios assume that Uncle Geoff even had a family. We know nothing about people's families or histories before records began. It also assumes that Uncle Geoff's family, if he had one, would care in the way 21st century families do and have the same concerns about his remains. We can't impose 21st century values on (eg) bronze age people but we don't have any other knowledge to apply.

I am constantly defending Medieval peoples in the 'values argument'so I wouldn't dare apply my values to another person....interestingly though isn't the Bronze Age a time of community/family burials?
Uncle Geoff would have walked the earth as a living breathing person in any age capable of thought and emotion,with someone making the effort to do what they considered was the right thing at the end.Isn't there a basic moral argument to treat the remains of the unknown with the same respect as the person in the photo on your neighbours mantlepiece.

May I point out something that does happen with archaeologists and graves.

When researching battle lines from WWI it has been known that un-interred bodies have been found, excavated, their families notified and then the bodies interred with respect.

Thats a good thing.

There has not always been too much repect even in christian places. In Samuel pepys diary he goes to see the sexton of a London church to arrange his brothers funeral he wants him buried in the nave inside the church a common practice for the better off. the sexton is sorry but the space under the floor, on lifting the flagstones is full by the incomplete decomposition of the more recent funerals. however for a crafty tip of sixpence he undertakes to get his spade and crowbar in there and "jostle them about a bit" until sufficient room is made for one more!!

An interesting discussion on a very sensitive subject.Obviously when these people were buried they expected to be there for ever how could they have any inkling of future 20th 212st century life and practice. Is it wrong to disturb them even if scientific research is a genuine reason. is that not just a blanket cover to justify modern day practice, after all can anyone here professional or amateur actually catalogue any benfit to us as modern day man from such research to justify whole sale removal? But i thought the excavations were carried out respectfully. The only distatseful comment is one oearlier on this site when the human remains and we should remeber that is what they are, were referred to as "skellies" ...disrespectful..

Those interested in the subject of the treatment of the dead in London may like to pass a few hours reading Necropolis by Catherine Arnold.Its an easy reading style but still informative.

I thought the cross found carved on the stone in the Keill indicated that these graves were Christian so why is everybody going on about pagans, in the contxt of this TT?

And another thing!

There was talk about this being a dig "untouched bt early Victorian antiquarians".

I can just imagine in 200 years or so's time the great great etc grandchildren of Tony, Phil & Co standing round this same Keill, and moaning that it was a great pity it was dug up in Elizabethan 2006 because so much was lost due to the primative and limited methods of analysis available then.

Is this ever considered at all these days, not just by TT but by all the other diggers around the world? I suppose you could argue that sites should at least be dug before they are built over etc, but I am not convinced.

I find this forum very interesting and am glad that we have got tongues wagging as it means we have been put on the map!
The manx Museum as far as I am aware have taken hold of these artifacts and once given permission by the land owner are to be included hopefully in a new exhibition of finds to be displayed within the museum, it will help people understand how people use to survive out here, also how peganism formed into christianity.
The finds will never be able to leave the island due to the law here, but more then likely will not be re-buried back on the course, it caused so much disruption that half the course was closed. The land had been so disrupted by farming/ploughing and the lane being placed in as well.
How do you think I feel looking out of my window everyday onto the site where they dug knowing that there are still remains out there, my neighbour dug a geave other week when doing work to their property, Andy Johnson came out to check it, recorded it and covered it back up. There are so many graves around here apparantly if they excavated everyone they would have no time to do anything else. Looking forward to sundays programme.