I have a suspicion that local farm / community / road names (particularly in the North of England associated with the word "Crow" - "Crow Trees" / Lower Crow farm" "Crow lane" etc have links with nearby Roman Roads. I've done a bit of road walking to check this. Crude use of www.multimap.co.uk (not the most cutting edge of archaeological tools) throws up some interestinfg correlations. is this a coincidenec? if not can someone explain this.
Ventius, you couldn't send me the reference for that snippet about the meaning of Thorn could you please? It's very relevent to my dissertation which encompasses a place called Thornwood Common that has a couple of other possible Roman links, so a third would be useful. The English Place-Names Dictionary jusy prattles on about thorn bushes...
Multimap may not be a cutting edge archaeological tool, but Google is...
A search on: Crow "roman road" uk gets you vastly more hits than a search using any other ornithological name, so far as I've found - and some of them are very relevant to your contention.
Crowborough in Suusex is about 4km from a roman road, but I have no idea if that is relevant. Why shld the name have any significance for roman roads??
If crow came from Welsh caer then a plausible link could be made - with a smaller sort of site than Cester/chester taken directly from the latin.
Alternatively, also from Welsh, there could be coincidences with names derived from cruc which in some cases means barrow or cairn - on which roman roads were commonly sighted. Those with more knowledge of Welsh than me might be able to comment on whether thorn is a possible mispronunciation of anything relevant.
Originally posted by acree: I have a suspicion that local farm / community / road names (particularly in the North of England associated with the word "Crow" - Lower Crow farm"
I was thinking of the way in which the english transformed Efrog (york) into Eoforwic - moving from a similar sound to a completely different word. I just suspect there are a lot more Welsh roots in english placenames than the English Place name Society credits - at least in earlier volumes, but hidden because the earliest english names have meaning.
Originally posted by paulbiv: If crow came from Welsh caer then a plausible link could be made
How?
Caer is associated with fortified site names (Caerphilly, Caernarfon, Caerleon etc) and not usually much else. I usually connect any place name with the word "stret" or "strat" included as being on or near a Roman road,
Caer is associated with fortified site names (Caerphilly, Caernarfon, Caerleon etc) and not usually much else. I usually connect any place name with the word "stret" or "strat" included as being on or near a Roman road,[/QUOTE]
Never thought about that Hopski, Stony Stratford, Fenny Stratford, Old Stratford... all are on the A5, the old Roman road and are now part of Milton Keynes.
The Ordnance Survey lists 351 placenames that include 'crow' within the name (and 882 that include 'thorn'). It would be relatively straightforward, if just a little time-consuming, to measure the distance from each place to the nearest known Roman road and then calculate the statistical probability of a spatial relationship. Any takers? Form a queue at the back ....
Originally posted by D: How searchable is The Ordnance Survey website? Can you cross reference major roman towns with place names of outlying villages?
You're hopeful! You can search by grid reference, post code and placename, and get (small area) 1:25,000 scale maps online. Multimap goes to 1:5,000 but offers much less detail, as you'd expect.
The current English pronunciation of 'r' is - unlike the earlier rolled Briton letter - a combination of a labio-dental sound and the so-called 'schwa' sound (the vowel you find in the first and third syllables of banana). It is possible that 'caer' could be transformed through English accents to 'crow', but not very likely. The contraction of sounds over the centuries is a lazy process, usually finding the easy way out, so Caer would more likely become 'ca' or 'car'. A transformation from 'caer' to 'crow' involves a linguistic leap of the imagination usually confined to 'I've Found King Arthur!' books.
I have a problem with 'thorn' meaning a nearby road. The presence of thorn bushes does not mean the presence of a road, or even the presence of thorn bushes. Why 'thorn'? If an area is named after its foliage, why not call it 'bush'?
'Sir' Mark -Cor Et Manus- 'I want the last cheque I write to bounce' - Carl Reiner, 'Oceans 12'
Originally posted by Caratacus: The contraction of sounds over the centuries is a lazy process, usually finding the easy way out, so Caer would more likely become 'ca' or 'car'. I have a problem with 'thorn' meaning a nearby road. The presence of thorn bushes does not mean the presence of a road, or even the presence of thorn bushes. Why 'thorn'? If an area is named after its foliage, why not call it 'bush'?
I agree Mark. Caer to ca or car has happened as in Cardiff. Back to thorn, I think our ancestors were more specific most of the in their place naming to use a generic term like Bush.
Thorn is presumably named after Hawthorn or Blackthorn, which are such common shrubs in the UK, found everywhere, that there must have something pretty damned special about them to call a place after them e.g. maybe there was a particularly large or old thorn which acted as a marker or meeting place. Same as with places named after 'Oak', which is such a common tree. I live in a village called Copthorne, which is supposed to mean 'the pollarded thorn'.
Originally posted by Silaction: Multimap may not be a cutting edge archaeological tool, but Google is...
A search on: Crow "roman road" uk gets you vastly more hits than a search using any other ornithological name, so far as I've found - and some of them are very relevant to your contention.
Thank you - Having posted the original enquiry I am glad someone tried it out. There seems to be some nonsense about "Caer" which seems so obviously irrelevent to the point made. The sites that flagged up on multimap (haven't tried google) were all pretty much on or adjacent to a roman road. Not 4km away. There seemend to be links between "crow" and road sites in the North of England. This was a serious suggestion. I was hoping people with a little more linguistic knowledge and experience could shed some light.
Talking of placename connections to Roman roads, it used to be reckoned that "Coldharbour" was a sure sign of a nearby Roman road, the idea being that the "cold harbour" was some kind of bad weather refuge.
However, I recently noticed that some Coldharbours are also close to hillforts (as well as Roman roads). Take Egbury, near St Mary Bourne in Hampshire for example. In this context the name might make more sense. Has anyone else noticed this? Does anyone care?
